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WebStart or Applets?

 
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asj
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 5:36 am    Post subject: WebStart or Applets? Reply with quote



We're going to be deploying SWING-based desktop-running apps (for
internet), and one choice we had to make was whether to use
browser-based applets or an app delivered via Webstart. Webstart apps
have a ton of downloads required at the beginning (unless the client
happens to have webstart already installed - oh, what i would give for
IBM or Sun to have a monopoly on the desktop!), but after that it's
smooth sailing it seems, plus you get loose from the somewhat
restraining sandbox. Applets are downloaded easier initially -
although each subsequent download looks just as slow to the user
because of the discrepancy between the fast downloading HTML versus
the slower downloading applet.

Then there's the Java plug-in, but that stop gap measure is probably
more of a way to ease the pain of applets. So, the question is what
would be the best way to go forward? Any opinions based on experience
are welcome (you can email me if you'd like,
[email]kalim1998 (AT) REMOVEyahoo (DOT) com[/email]).
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Roedy Green
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2004 12:09 am    Post subject: Re: WebStart or Applets? Reply with quote



On 15 Apr 2004 22:36:04 -0700, [email]asj (AT) blueboard (DOT) com[/email] (asj) wrote or quoted


See my discussion of the pros and cons at
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/javawebstart.html
and
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/applet.html


Quote:
We're going to be deploying SWING-based desktop-running apps (for
internet), and one choice we had to make was whether to use
browser-based applets or an app delivered via Webstart. Webstart apps
have a ton of downloads required at the beginning (unless the client
happens to have webstart already installed - oh, what i would give for
IBM or Sun to have a monopoly on the desktop!), but after that it's
smooth sailing it seems, plus you get loose from the somewhat
restraining sandbox.

The latest Java's have Webstart already built in. Insisting on people
using a recent Java gets rid of all manner of headaches. With
Webstart you can see what they have got and pick your favourite or
make them get the one you want.

Quote:
Applets are downloaded easier initially -
although each subsequent download looks just as slow to the user
because of the discrepancy between the fast downloading HTML versus
the slower downloading applet.

If they have JWS installed, JWS is no slower than loading your FIRST
applet of the day. In both cases a Java runtime has to be started.

Quote:
Then there's the Java plug-in, but that stop gap measure is probably
more of a way to ease the pain of applets. So, the question is what
would be the best way to go forward? Any opinions based on experience
are welcome (you can email me if you'd like,
[email]kalim1998 (AT) REMOVEyahoo (DOT) com[/email]).

Applets are for tiny little projects used by the general public.
Anything of any complexity JWS will be better. That is the bottom
line.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.

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Tim Tyler
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2004 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: WebStart or Applets? Reply with quote



Roedy Green <look-at-the-website (AT) mindprod (DOT) com> wrote or quoted:

Quote:
Applets are for tiny little projects used by the general public.
Anything of any complexity JWS will be better. That is the bottom
line.

We haven't seen any figures for Java Web Start penetration here recently.

Is it any better than it used to be?

Not long ago, writing to Java Web Start decreased the number of users able
to use your application (without a multi-megabyte download) by an order of
magnitude.
--
__________
Quote:
im |yler http://timtyler.org/ [email]tim (AT) tt1lock (DOT) org[/email] Remove lock to reply.

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Roedy Green
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2004 9:08 pm    Post subject: Re: WebStart or Applets? Reply with quote

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 08:45:47 GMT, Tim Tyler <tim (AT) tt1lock (DOT) org> wrote
or quoted :

Quote:
Not long ago, writing to Java Web Start decreased the number of users able
to use your application (without a multi-megabyte download) by an order of
magnitude.

I am using it more and more myself. When people see how easy it is to
set up, and how slick the auto-update feature is, they are sold. It
just SOUNDS complicated when you read the Sun docs.

JWS is now bundled. As for the JDK or JRE, you can send that on CD or
send the URL. The nice thing is the install is simple. It does not
ask a lot of techie questions.

The biggest headache is IE with its ancient JVM and people complaining
that Applets are broken. Hopefully that will be fixed soon. If there
is a God, perhaps MS will put the latest JRE into the autoupdate on
Windows.

In the meantime I'd like a feature put into java to AUTOMATICALLY
check the run time to make sure it was recent enough, without
application coding, just like JWS does. It would save untold hours of
support farting about.

--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.

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asj
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 7:40 pm    Post subject: Re: WebStart or Applets? Reply with quote

Roedy Green <look-at-the-website (AT) mindprod (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:
On 15 Apr 2004 22:36:04 -0700, [email]asj (AT) blueboard (DOT) com[/email] (asj) wrote or quoted


See my discussion of the pros and cons at
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/javawebstart.html
and
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/applet.html

thank you roedy...as usual, your analysis is damn good. as an aside,
it does not look at all like webstart is being orphaned. it may be
just because i opened my eyes to it right now, but it certainly seems
to be an ever-increasing way of deploying standalone java apps...its
ubiquity in mac os x (and the new linux desktops) probably helps too.

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asj
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: WebStart or Applets? Reply with quote

Tim Tyler <tim (AT) tt1lock (DOT) org> wrote

Quote:
We haven't seen any figures for Java Web Start penetration here recently.



well, it's bundled will all mac os x desktops it looks like, as well
as the sun-controlled linux boxes, and it seems to be bundled with
j2se 1.4 nowadays, which means (according to sun at least) that about
60% of all new desktops shipped will have web start installed due to
sun agreements with hardware desktop vendors.

so it looks very far from dead.

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Roedy Green
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:31 pm    Post subject: Re: WebStart or Applets? Reply with quote

On 22 Apr 2004 12:40:26 -0700, [email]asj (AT) blueboard (DOT) com[/email] (asj) wrote or quoted
:

Quote:
thank you roedy...as usual, your analysis is damn good. as an aside,
it does not look at all like webstart is being orphaned.

Webstart went through some doldrums and seem to have picked up again.
One problem with writing the glossary is ideally I would have to read
the whole thing every day to see what had gone stale. I am beginning
to put dates is some crucial information I am pretty sure will go
stale to warn you.

--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.

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asj
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:52 am    Post subject: Re: WebStart or Applets? Reply with quote

Roedy Green <see (AT) mindprod (DOT) com.invalid> wrote

Quote:
On 22 Apr 2004 12:40:26 -0700, [email]asj (AT) blueboard (DOT) com[/email] (asj) wrote or quoted
:

thank you roedy...as usual, your analysis is damn good. as an aside,
it does not look at all like webstart is being orphaned.

Webstart went through some doldrums and seem to have picked up again.
One problem with writing the glossary is ideally I would have to read
the whole thing every day to see what had gone stale. I am beginning
to put dates is some crucial information I am pretty sure will go
stale to warn you.

yep...good idea...when reading your glossary, i had to continually
guestimate whether some point you made was dated.

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