AppletTalk.com Java discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  The hidden success of Java handhelds Goto page 1, 2  Next          AppletTalk.com Forum Index -> Java: Support and criticism View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message asj Guest Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:09 pm    Post subject: The hidden success of Java handhelds I'm looking through the local papers (Star Ledger) this morning, and lo and behold, I see a story that an entire police department in Boston had standardized on using Java-based BlackBerry handhelds to access police databases while on the field! Coming up so soon after another story I noticed that the USPS was also standardizing on these handhelds and converting all their apps to Java apps, this really hits home the fact that RIM has a real winner here - a winner that is totally Java-based! I don't have a Blackberry, but from emulators and just the pics they do not seem as "cool" as Palms or Windows handhelds. And yet, these handhelds seem to have grown the fastest in 2003, a testament to the fact that business users aren't as blinded by the "cool gadget" factor as the normal geeks who litter Javaspace (Hello, Russell). The hopeful thing to note is that departments and organizations always like simplicity and usefulness, and especially robustness, and word of mouth about the Blackberry probably is very strong after its success at the USPS during the NorthEast blackout, and after other successes like its use in various police departments and such. Overall, this is a very good sign for Java not only dominating the mobile phone market, but also encroaching on the handheld market via a surprise route - the RIM way. Java developers keep moaning over the fact that J2ME support on Palm and Windows handhelds isn't what it could be. Perhaps it's time to ditch those lazy bum handhelds in the enterprise and push a product that not only is the fastest growing handheld out there, but which is completely committed to Java. Back to top Roedy Green Guest Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: The hidden success of Java handhelds On 25 Jun 2004 10:09:39 -0700, [email]asj (AT) blueboard (DOT) com[/email] (asj) wrote or quoted : Quote: I don't have a Blackberry, but from emulators and just the pics they do not seem as "cool" as Palms or Windows handhelds. The coolness is not what makes a police department pick a Blackberry. The ease of development of custom apps, with some serious growing room does. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary. Back to top Carlos Bazzarella Guest Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:17 pm    Post subject: Re: The hidden success of Java handhelds RIM's Java based Blackberry is the only J2ME implementation that does *not* support 5 way navigation !!! All you can do is use the "thumb wheel", and to do that you must change your code to work *only* on their devices !!! Another thing is that Blackberry only supports MIDP 1.0 (which the spec. was released in 1999), nowadays every new device comes with support for MIDP 2.0. Carlos. asj wrote: Quote: I'm looking through the local papers (Star Ledger) this morning, and lo and behold, I see a story that an entire police department in Boston had standardized on using Java-based BlackBerry handhelds to access police databases while on the field! Coming up so soon after another story I noticed that the USPS was also standardizing on these handhelds and converting all their apps to Java apps, this really hits home the fact that RIM has a real winner here - a winner that is totally Java-based! I don't have a Blackberry, but from emulators and just the pics they do not seem as "cool" as Palms or Windows handhelds. And yet, these handhelds seem to have grown the fastest in 2003, a testament to the fact that business users aren't as blinded by the "cool gadget" factor as the normal geeks who litter Javaspace (Hello, Russell). The hopeful thing to note is that departments and organizations always like simplicity and usefulness, and especially robustness, and word of mouth about the Blackberry probably is very strong after its success at the USPS during the NorthEast blackout, and after other successes like its use in various police departments and such. Overall, this is a very good sign for Java not only dominating the mobile phone market, but also encroaching on the handheld market via a surprise route - the RIM way. Java developers keep moaning over the fact that J2ME support on Palm and Windows handhelds isn't what it could be. Perhaps it's time to ditch those lazy bum handhelds in the enterprise and push a product that not only is the fastest growing handheld out there, but which is completely committed to Java. Back to top Roedy Green Guest Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: The hidden success of Java handhelds On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 16:17:08 -0400, Carlos Bazzarella <cbazzaTAKE (AT) OUTpoliplus (DOT) com> wrote or quoted : Quote: All you can do is use the "thumb wheel", and to do that you must change your code to work *only* on their devices !!! Another thing is that Blackberry only supports MIDP 1.0 (which the spec. was released in 1999), nowadays every new device comes with support for MIDP 2.0. sounds like they are taking a leaf from the pages of Microsoft and the bad old IBM. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary. Back to top Grant Wagner Guest Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:11 pm    Post subject: Re: The hidden success of Java handhelds Which speaks to the fact that the Blackberry is the right device, with the right features, at the right time, for the right price. It offers PDA, text messaging and cell phone capability in a single device for what is considered by business to be a reasonable price. It has nothing to do with the technology involved. Blackberries could run DOS 2.0 and no one at my wife's company would care as long as they got their system failure notices and phone calls on a timely basis. The only people who care that the Blackberry is a 100% Java device are techo-geeks, everyone else just wants stuff to work the way they want it to work. Carlos Bazzarella wrote: Quote: RIM's Java based Blackberry is the only J2ME implementation that does *not* support 5 way navigation !!! All you can do is use the "thumb wheel", and to do that you must change your code to work *only* on their devices !!! Another thing is that Blackberry only supports MIDP 1.0 (which the spec. was released in 1999), nowadays every new device comes with support for MIDP 2.0. Carlos. asj wrote: I'm looking through the local papers (Star Ledger) this morning, and lo and behold, I see a story that an entire police department in Boston had standardized on using Java-based BlackBerry handhelds to access police databases while on the field! Coming up so soon after another story I noticed that the USPS was also standardizing on these handhelds and converting all their apps to Java apps, this really hits home the fact that RIM has a real winner here - a winner that is totally Java-based! I don't have a Blackberry, but from emulators and just the pics they do not seem as "cool" as Palms or Windows handhelds. And yet, these handhelds seem to have grown the fastest in 2003, a testament to the fact that business users aren't as blinded by the "cool gadget" factor as the normal geeks who litter Javaspace (Hello, Russell). The hopeful thing to note is that departments and organizations always like simplicity and usefulness, and especially robustness, and word of mouth about the Blackberry probably is very strong after its success at the USPS during the NorthEast blackout, and after other successes like its use in various police departments and such. Overall, this is a very good sign for Java not only dominating the mobile phone market, but also encroaching on the handheld market via a surprise route - the RIM way. Java developers keep moaning over the fact that J2ME support on Palm and Windows handhelds isn't what it could be. Perhaps it's time to ditch those lazy bum handhelds in the enterprise and push a product that not only is the fastest growing handheld out there, but which is completely committed to Java. Back to top Roedy Green Guest Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:33 pm    Post subject: Re: The hidden success of Java handhelds On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 21:11:22 GMT, Grant Wagner <gwagner (AT) agricoreunited (DOT) com> wrote or quoted : Quote: The only people who care that the Blackberry is a 100% Java device are techo-geeks, everyone else just wants stuff to work the way they want it to work. I think you are underestimating the Java aspect. A Palm Pilot application will be sold to perhaps hundreds of thousands of users. You can amortise the programming cost over many users. When you write a custom app, you may only have 1 to 100 or so users. You need a much cheaper way of producing custom programs than you do mass market ones. Writing for tiny devices is usually EXTREMELY device specific and you are clawing for every byte of ROM/RAM. The Blackberry loosens that up considerably. Further, it lets you do your development on very ordinary desktop hardware with relatively ordinary programmers. The Blackberry has hit a sweetspot -- sufficient RAM so you can breathe, a believable keyboard, integrated cellphone/connectivity and a believable price. I've been rooting for them since day one because they were Canadian, and I love blackberries, my "totem" plant. Not only do they produce abundant delicious free fruit, they are so tough they are one of the few species likely to survive a nuclear war. I root for the blackberries tearing up abandoned parking lots. To me, they symbolise the robustness of life. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary. Back to top Roedy Green Guest Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:42 pm    Post subject: Re: The hidden success of Java handhelds On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 21:33:43 GMT, Roedy Green <look-on (AT) mindprod (DOT) com.invalid> wrote or quoted : Quote: The Blackberry has hit a sweetspot -- sufficient RAM so you can breathe, a believable keyboard, integrated cellphone/connectivity and a believable price. It also has a mystique a bit like the old Volkswagen. It is a bit deliberately homely looking. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary. Back to top Jim Sculley Guest Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 11:58 pm    Post subject: Re: The hidden success of Java handhelds Roedy Green wrote: Quote: On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 21:33:43 GMT, Roedy Green [email]look-on (AT) mindprod (DOT) com.inva[/email]lid> wrote or quoted : The Blackberry has hit a sweetspot -- sufficient RAM so you can breathe, a believable keyboard, integrated cellphone/connectivity and a believable price. It also has a mystique a bit like the old Volkswagen. It is a bit deliberately homely looking. I liken it to talking into a piece of toast. Jim S. -- Remove my extraneous mandibular appendages to reply via email. Back to top Carlos Bazzarella Guest Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 12:08 am    Post subject: Re: The hidden success of Java handhelds Techno-geeks are the ones releasing applications and look around and you won't find many for the Blackberry !!! Great device if all you want is email. Back when, NextStep was wonderful, too bad all apps were being developed for Windows instead. We all know what happened then. So for the less informed, standard Java J2ME 2.0 compatibility is extremely important to be able to run current software that is being developed by the techno-geeks. Carlos. Grant Wagner wrote: Quote: Which speaks to the fact that the Blackberry is the right device, with the right features, at the right time, for the right price. It offers PDA, text messaging and cell phone capability in a single device for what is considered by business to be a reasonable price. It has nothing to do with the technology involved. Blackberries could run DOS 2.0 and no one at my wife's company would care as long as they got their system failure notices and phone calls on a timely basis. The only people who care that the Blackberry is a 100% Java device are techo-geeks, everyone else just wants stuff to work the way they want it to work. Carlos Bazzarella wrote: RIM's Java based Blackberry is the only J2ME implementation that does *not* support 5 way navigation !!! All you can do is use the "thumb wheel", and to do that you must change your code to work *only* on their devices !!! Another thing is that Blackberry only supports MIDP 1.0 (which the spec. was released in 1999), nowadays every new device comes with support for MIDP 2.0. Carlos. asj wrote: I'm looking through the local papers (Star Ledger) this morning, and lo and behold, I see a story that an entire police department in Boston had standardized on using Java-based BlackBerry handhelds to access police databases while on the field! Coming up so soon after another story I noticed that the USPS was also standardizing on these handhelds and converting all their apps to Java apps, this really hits home the fact that RIM has a real winner here - a winner that is totally Java-based! I don't have a Blackberry, but from emulators and just the pics they do not seem as "cool" as Palms or Windows handhelds. And yet, these handhelds seem to have grown the fastest in 2003, a testament to the fact that business users aren't as blinded by the "cool gadget" factor as the normal geeks who litter Javaspace (Hello, Russell). The hopeful thing to note is that departments and organizations always like simplicity and usefulness, and especially robustness, and word of mouth about the Blackberry probably is very strong after its success at the USPS during the NorthEast blackout, and after other successes like its use in various police departments and such. Overall, this is a very good sign for Java not only dominating the mobile phone market, but also encroaching on the handheld market via a surprise route - the RIM way. Java developers keep moaning over the fact that J2ME support on Palm and Windows handhelds isn't what it could be. Perhaps it's time to ditch those lazy bum handhelds in the enterprise and push a product that not only is the fastest growing handheld out there, but which is completely committed to Java. Back to top Tom Shelton Guest Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 6:43 am    Post subject: Re: The hidden success of Java handhelds On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 21:42:01 GMT, Roedy Green wrote: Quote: On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 21:33:43 GMT, Roedy Green [email]look-on (AT) mindprod (DOT) com.inva[/email]lid> wrote or quoted : The Blackberry has hit a sweetspot -- sufficient RAM so you can breathe, a believable keyboard, integrated cellphone/connectivity and a believable price. It also has a mystique a bit like the old Volkswagen. It is a bit deliberately homely looking. Hey! Be careful what you say about old Volkswagens! I have two of them, a 1967 Beetle (my daily driver) and 1961 Ragtop (Beetle with a folding cloth sun roof - which is my project car). If I could I'd have a lot more of them - they are great fun, and not the least bit homely, IMO. -- Tom Shelton Back to top asj Guest Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:57 am    Post subject: Re: The hidden success of Java handhelds Carlos Bazzarella <cbazzaTAKE (AT) OUTpoliplus (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Techno-geeks are the ones releasing applications and look around and you won't find many for the Blackberry !!! Great device if all you want is email. Back when, NextStep was wonderful, too bad all apps were being developed for Windows instead. We all know what happened then. So for the less informed, standard Java J2ME 2.0 compatibility is extremely important to be able to run current software that is being developed by the techno-geeks. Carlos: Blackberry is not going soon, if that's what you're worried about. It actually was one of the (if not the fastest) fastest growing handheld since last year. And businesses will gravitate to producing apps if there is a market for it, not just because geeks like playing around with the darn thing. Back to top asj Guest Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:57 am    Post subject: Re: The hidden success of Java handhelds Carlos Bazzarella <cbazzaTAKE (AT) OUTpoliplus (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Techno-geeks are the ones releasing applications and look around and you won't find many for the Blackberry !!! Great device if all you want is email. Back when, NextStep was wonderful, too bad all apps were being developed for Windows instead. We all know what happened then. So for the less informed, standard Java J2ME 2.0 compatibility is extremely important to be able to run current software that is being developed by the techno-geeks. Carlos: Blackberry is not going soon, if that's what you're worried about. It actually was one of the (if not the fastest) fastest growing handheld since last year. And businesses will gravitate to producing apps if there is a market for it, not just because geeks like playing around with the darn thing. Back to top Grant Wagner Guest Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: The hidden success of Java handhelds asj wrote: Quote: Carlos Bazzarella <cbazzaTAKE (AT) OUTpoliplus (DOT) com> wrote Techno-geeks are the ones releasing applications and look around and you won't find many for the Blackberry !!! Great device if all you want is email. Back when, NextStep was wonderful, too bad all apps were being developed for Windows instead. We all know what happened then. So for the less informed, standard Java J2ME 2.0 compatibility is extremely important to be able to run current software that is being developed by the techno-geeks. Carlos: Blackberry is not going soon, if that's what you're worried about. It actually was one of the (if not the fastest) fastest growing handheld since last year. Personally I'm not worried about them going away. My point was that their success is in no way due to the technical superiority (or lack thereof) of Java. It is simply a device that gives humans what they need, when they need it. It also has a certain industry "buzz" about it, making it "trendy" and "cool" to carry a Blackberry. None of it's engineered features, nor the buzz, has anything to do with Java. Quote: And businesses will gravitate to producing apps if there is a market for it, not just because geeks like playing around with the darn thing. Businesses would gravitate to producing apps if the Blackberry ran "Blackberry Programming Environment Alpha 0.713" and you needed a special IDE from Blackberry to program the thing. The success of the device is because the device does the right things, at the right point in history, for the right price. Although the price _can_ probably be attributed to Java to some extent. If RIM had had to develop their own programming environment the cost of that would have to have been included in the retail cost of the device. -- Quote: Grant Wagner Back to top asj Guest Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:30 am    Post subject: Re: The hidden success of Java handhelds Grant Wagner <gwagner (AT) agricoreunited (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Personally I'm not worried about them going away. My point was that their success is in no way due to the technical superiority (or lack thereof) of Java. It is simply a device that gives humans what they need, when well, you'll get no argument from me. i never said they are successful BECAUSE of java (although i'm sure the licensing terms are better than what microsoft or palm would give them), and i actually don't CARE. the point is that they are a java-based handheld that is helping spread java - now that, i care about. Back to top Roedy Green Guest Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 2:19 am    Post subject: Re: The hidden success of Java handhelds On 29 Jun 2004 18:30:57 -0700, [email]asj (AT) blueboard (DOT) com[/email] (asj) wrote or quoted : Quote: well, you'll get no argument from me. i never said they are successful BECAUSE of java (although i'm sure the licensing terms are better than what microsoft or palm would give them), and i actually don't CARE. the point is that they are a java-based handheld that is helping spread java - now that, i care about. With Java it becomes much more feasible to create an integrated range of products designed to run on handheld, server, and desktop. There cane be code sharing. Intercommunication is easier. You can use one programming team for everything. It becomes much more feasible to tack on yet another platform and intermediate feature set at the last minute depending on what's hot. In the old days, pretty well every platform size had to be tackled completely from scratch. Up front, you had to decide your CPU and your ROM/RAM size and that was cast in stone. There is another problem Java solves. Let's say for example you decided to create a physician's amanuensis to track drug costs and interactions. As development proceeds, you discover this thing will not shoehorn into a Palm Pilot. In the old days, programmers clawed back functionality to scrimp every byte to force it to fit. There was ZERO room for any additional functionality no matter how the marketing boys screamed. To produce version 1.1 required a rewrite to a new platform or heroic ram-saving measures. Now it is possible to delay the decision of best hardware to later in the development cycle. You don't box yourself in. You further have the option of offloading some of the functionality to the desktop or a server. You don't have to start over from scratch to shift the functionality. You can adjust it as you go if you see you erred in your estimates. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary. Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         AppletTalk.com Forum Index -> Java: Support and criticism All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2  Next Page 1 of 2   Jump to: Select a forum Java Newsgroups----------------Java DiscussionsWeb-based java games comp.lang.java 3D Graphics API's for Java Java: Support and criticism Java System Announcements comp.lang.java.api JavaBeans Java and CORBA Java and Databases comp.lang.java.developer Java GUI Toolkits Java Help comp.lang.java.javascript JVM, native methods and hardware comp.lang.java.misc Java Language Programming Security and Java comp.lang.java.setup Java Software Tools comp.lang.java.tech ibm.software.java.linux  Non-English Java Newsgroups----------------Java Language (German)Language Java (Français)Java (Italian)  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.