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Roedy Green
Guest
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 Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 5:23 pm Post subject: POD speed |
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I saw this note on the Prevayler website www.prevayler.com
Queries with Prevayler are more than 9000 times faster than querying
Oracle through JDBC.
Queries with Prevayler are more than 3000 times faster than querying
MySQL through JDBC.
Prevaler is a persistent object database. see
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/pod.html
There are two surprises.
1. MySQL is 3 times faster than ORACLE but Oracle is far more
expensive?
2. PODs are that much faster than SQL.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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Chris Smith
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: POD speed |
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Roedy Green wrote:
| Quote: | I saw this note on the Prevayler website www.prevayler.com
Queries with Prevayler are more than 9000 times faster than querying
Oracle through JDBC.
Queries with Prevayler are more than 3000 times faster than querying
MySQL through JDBC.
Prevaler is a persistent object database. see
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/pod.html
There are two surprises.
1. MySQL is 3 times faster than ORACLE but Oracle is far more
expensive?
2. PODs are that much faster than SQL.
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Roedy,
What you're seeing is Prevayler agreeing with MySQL to look at the world
through red-tinted glasses, while Oracle sees with blue-tinted glasses.
The resulting pictures are much different. Notice that you don't get to
see which queries are faster, or what the data looks like for the
queries, or how the database is being used concurrently for other tasks
at the same time. That's because these details are being tweaked to be
as friendly as possible to the simple object-access case that this
object database (and to a lesser extent MySQL, as well) is tuned for.
This is a common division of database vendors. Though there are a lot
of exceptions, most object database systems don't really target the
high-scalability, high-reliability audience. If you aren't doing the
work that makes for that kind of scalability and reliability, it's
really easy to post performance numbers that look out of this world.
--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way to Train Anyone... Anywhere.
Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation
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Silvio Bierman
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:44 pm Post subject: Re: POD speed |
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"Roedy Green" <look-on (AT) mindprod (DOT) com.invalid> wrote
| Quote: | I saw this note on the Prevayler website www.prevayler.com
Queries with Prevayler are more than 9000 times faster than querying
Oracle through JDBC.
Queries with Prevayler are more than 3000 times faster than querying
MySQL through JDBC.
Prevaler is a persistent object database. see
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/pod.html
There are two surprises.
1. MySQL is 3 times faster than ORACLE but Oracle is far more
expensive?
2. PODs are that much faster than SQL.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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Roedy,
A storage system for persisted objects has nothing to do with a relational
database system apart from the fact that the latter could be used to emulate
the former. Comparing them is plain stupid and I am afraid this tells us a
lot about the guys behind the product.
Silvio Bierman
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Roedy Green
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:52 am Post subject: Re: POD speed |
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On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 00:44:00 +0200, "Silvio Bierman"
<sbierman (AT) idfix (DOT) nl> wrote or quoted :
| Quote: |
A storage system for persisted objects has nothing to do with a relational
database system apart from the fact that the latter could be used to emulate
the former. Comparing them is plain stupid and I am afraid this tells us a
lot about the guys behind the product.
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There are projects that could go POD or SQL. I think people tend to
overlook the POD approach simply because the SQL approach is more
familiar.
I used to work for Univac, so I am well familiar with tweaking
benchmarks.
However, they are talking a many orders of magnitude difference. Even
if this only happens under special circumstances, it means POD's
deserve a second look.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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Silvio Bierman
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 9:16 pm Post subject: Re: POD speed |
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"Roedy Green" <look-on (AT) mindprod (DOT) com.invalid> wrote
| Quote: | On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 00:44:00 +0200, "Silvio Bierman"
[email]sbierman (AT) idfix (DOT) nl[/email]> wrote or quoted :
A storage system for persisted objects has nothing to do with a
relational
database system apart from the fact that the latter could be used to
emulate
the former. Comparing them is plain stupid and I am afraid this tells us
a
lot about the guys behind the product.
There are projects that could go POD or SQL. I think people tend to
overlook the POD approach simply because the SQL approach is more
familiar.
I used to work for Univac, so I am well familiar with tweaking
benchmarks.
However, they are talking a many orders of magnitude difference. Even
if this only happens under special circumstances, it means POD's
deserve a second look.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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Roedy,
As I already stated I think the POD approach is a draconic simplification
that serves no practical use other than the most trivial applications. I
also said that a RDBMS can be used as an awkward POD storage system so
whenever you consider a POD solution the RDBMS is always an option.
It has nothing to do with familiarity just like serializing objects has
nothing to do with a database. A relational database is a stylized and
standardized way to store data for efficient retrieval through multiple
access paths and through multiple applications. Serializing objects is a
program-(language)-local way of storing a memory-object for recreation at a
later moment.
People who mix up the two have usually no experience whatsoever whith
developing mission critical enterprise applications...
Regards,
Silvio Bierman
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Roedy Green
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: POD speed |
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On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:16:10 +0200, "Silvio Bierman"
<sbierman (AT) idfix (DOT) nl> wrote or quoted :
| Quote: | As I already stated I think the POD approach is a draconic simplification
that serves no practical use other than the most trivial applications
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I don't see that. PODs give you transaction processing, persistence,
infinite RAM. The one thing you don't get is to hide information.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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Lee Fesperman
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:22 pm Post subject: Re: POD speed |
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Roedy Green wrote:
| Quote: |
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:16:10 +0200, "Silvio Bierman"
[email]sbierman (AT) idfix (DOT) nl[/email]> wrote or quoted :
As I already stated I think the POD approach is a draconic simplification
that serves no practical use other than the most trivial applications
I don't see that. PODs give you transaction processing, persistence,
infinite RAM. The one thing you don't get is to hide information.
|
Too bad you snipped his putdown of you, which you deserved. You are out of your element
here.
--
Lee Fesperman, FirstSQL, Inc. (http://www.firstsql.com)
==============================================================
* The Ultimate DBMS is here!
* FirstSQL/J Object/Relational DBMS (http://www.firstsql.com)
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Roedy Green
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:38 pm Post subject: Re: POD speed |
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On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 23:22:49 GMT, Lee Fesperman
<firstsql (AT) ix (DOT) netcom.com> wrote or quoted :
| Quote: |
Too bad you snipped his putdown of you, which you deserved. You are out of your element
here.
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You explained nothing. Claiming superior knowledge, using a putdown,
without sharing that knowledge is a cheap shot.
Why should I quote his rude remarks? My post had nothing to do with
them.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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Lee Fesperman
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 8:17 am Post subject: Re: POD speed |
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Roedy Green wrote:
| Quote: |
On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 23:22:49 GMT, Lee Fesperman
[email]firstsql (AT) ix (DOT) netcom.com[/email]> wrote or quoted :
Too bad you snipped his putdown of you, which you deserved. You are
out of your element here.
You explained nothing. Claiming superior knowledge, using a putdown,
without sharing that knowledge is a cheap shot.
|
You can't explain the whole of database concepts in a newsgroup posting.
To put it simply, POD is not a Database Management System (DBMS) because it does not
manage the database. It does not provide data integrity, security and access. It is
nothing more than an object persistence layer.
You are comparing apples to oranges. Without a DBMS, the data cannot be trusted. It is
little more than garbage. Fast access to garbage is meaningless.
--
Lee Fesperman, FirstSQL, Inc. (http://www.firstsql.com)
==============================================================
* The Ultimate DBMS is here!
* FirstSQL/J Object/Relational DBMS (http://www.firstsql.com)
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Roedy Green
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 11:54 am Post subject: Re: POD speed |
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On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 08:17:35 GMT, Lee Fesperman
<firstsql (AT) ix (DOT) netcom.com> wrote or quoted :
| Quote: | It does not provide data integrity, security and access. It is
nothing more than an object persistence layer.
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The POD I used, ObjectStore, did provide integrity, by using
transactions. Granted, it did not let you give selective access to
different fields the way SQL does. I not sure what you mean by
security, but perhaps you are referring the password type, which would
not be hard to implement in a POD.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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Chris Smith
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:43 pm Post subject: Re: POD speed |
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Lee Fesperman wrote:
| Quote: | You are comparing apples to oranges. Without a DBMS, the data cannot
be trusted. It is little more than garbage. Fast access to garbage
is meaningless.
|
Ya know (and I'm sure I'll regret jumping in here), it's statements like
the one you just made that convince large parts of the software industry
that most people with database knowledge are idiots. Of *course* data
that's not in a DBMS is both useful and trustworthy, and of *course*
it's not garbage or anything close to it. The world has depended on it
for thousands of years.
Database software provides some very nice features that meet the data
storage and retrieval requirements of a fairly large class of
applications. However, the great majority of applications don't need
database software to manage their data's integrity or security. That's
just fact.
--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way to Train Anyone... Anywhere.
Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation
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Lee Fesperman
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:37 am Post subject: Re: POD speed |
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Roedy Green wrote:
| Quote: |
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 08:17:35 GMT, Lee Fesperman
[email]firstsql (AT) ix (DOT) netcom.com[/email]> wrote or quoted :
It does not provide data integrity, security and access. It is
nothing more than an object persistence layer.
The POD I used, ObjectStore, did provide integrity, by using
transactions. Granted, it did not let you give selective access to
different fields the way SQL does. I not sure what you mean by
security, but perhaps you are referring the password type, which would
not be hard to implement in a POD.
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Database integrity involves much more than transactions, security much more than
passwords. We are talking on two different levels. You have a very simplistic view of
database and database management.
I specialize in databases. I participate in comp.lang.java.programmer and read your
strange rant on SQL databases, but I don't worry about such stuff on c.l.j.p.. However
if you want to post uninformed opinions about database on comp.lang.java.databases, I
for one will call you on it.
--
Lee Fesperman, FirstSQL, Inc. (http://www.firstsql.com)
==============================================================
* The Ultimate DBMS is here!
* FirstSQL/J Object/Relational DBMS (http://www.firstsql.com)
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Lee Fesperman
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:57 am Post subject: Re: POD speed |
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Chris Smith wrote:
| Quote: |
Lee Fesperman wrote:
You are comparing apples to oranges. Without a DBMS, the data cannot
be trusted. It is little more than garbage. Fast access to garbage
is meaningless.
Ya know (and I'm sure I'll regret jumping in here), it's statements like
the one you just made that convince large parts of the software industry
that most people with database knowledge are idiots. Of *course* data
that's not in a DBMS is both useful and trustworthy, and of *course*
it's not garbage or anything close to it. The world has depended on it
for thousands of years.
|
You really should watch your language (idiots). On comp.lang.java.programmer, I called
Dale King on his intemperate language and caused him to stop. You need the same lesson.
You should know I've posted on c.l.j.p. for a long time. It is it your opinion that I am
an idiot (just because I specialize in database?)
Keep on topic. We're not talking about thousands of years. We're talking about
application programs. What gives you the idea that they handle data properly?
| Quote: | Database software provides some very nice features that meet the data
storage and retrieval requirements of a fairly large class of
applications. However, the great majority of applications don't need
database software to manage their data's integrity or security. That's
just fact.
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"Don't need" is opinion, not fact. You might say that about the simplest, single program
application, that will never change (if such is possible), otherwise it is not fact.
Although decisions are made every day to follow that uninformed opinion, they are bad
decisions.
Like Roedy, you're out of your element. I quite aware of the limits of your knowledge.
--
Lee Fesperman, FirstSQL, Inc. (http://www.firstsql.com)
==============================================================
* The Ultimate DBMS is here!
* FirstSQL/J Object/Relational DBMS (http://www.firstsql.com)
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Silvio Bierman
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: POD speed |
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First of all I want to state that putdowns posted by me earlier where not
directed towards Roedy but towards the guys promoting the POD product by
making a speed comparison with RDBMS systems.
In reaction to this thread I have to agree with Lee here. An RDBMS is a way
to put the information (data if you want) above all applications using it.
These applications may be written by you but could very easily be standard
packages like reporting and datawarehousing tools. Access to the data by
these applications can and should be controlled and monitored in a very
detailed way. For enterprise level applications this is the only way to go.
It is not a questions IF users will want to do analysis or reporting on
operational use or gathered data but WHEN and HOW. The same holds for
integration with other software systems.
It is a totally different thing from storing some data that is meaningfull
to some application in such a way that it can be retrieved during later
runs. This could be achieved with a RDBMS but, as Roedy and many others have
stated can also be done differently. Object serialization or any other type
of binary or text formats come to mind, possibly to plain files or a data
management system.
The value of an RDBMS can be compared to that of widely accepted standard
network protocols. It allows the development of software components in such
a way that they can be combined with others without bothering with
programming-languages, platform specific details and application-local
(nonstandard) encoding of data. That is why architectural boundaries should
be defined in such terms instead of proprietary terms.
Regards,
Silvio Bierman
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Roedy Green
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: POD speed |
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On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 09:57:49 GMT, Lee Fesperman
<firstsql (AT) ix (DOT) netcom.com> wrote or quoted :
| Quote: |
You really should watch your language (idiots). On comp.lang.java.programmer, I called
Dale King on his intemperate language and caused him to stop. You need the same lesson.
|
What we are complaining about is your sudden attack of grand majesty
as if we should all bow to your opinion even though you refuse to
backup or explain your statements.
You try at persuade simply by claiming you know more than others.
That may be so, but it is still a very unconvincing argument.
I also think you are presuming that every problem is like the ones you
specialize in. Sometimes a sledgehammer is not the appropriate size
tool.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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