AppletTalk.com Java discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  [OT] Humans are faster than horses!          AppletTalk.com Forum Index -> Java: Support and criticism View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Michael N. Christoff Guest Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:45 am    Post subject: [OT] Humans are faster than horses! Man beats horse in desert race http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/animals/newsid_1804000/1804830.stm l8r, Mike N. Christoff Back to top Lonewackodotcom Guest Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:06 pm    Post subject: Re: [OT] Humans are faster than horses! Quote: Man beats horse in desert race http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/animals/newsid_1804000/1804830.stm From the article: "An American long-distance runner has proved that two legs are sometimes faster than four by beating a horse in a 50-mile race in the desert." What in that paragraph applies to the discussion of which language is faster? How many Americans are long-distance runners? It gets even worse when you naturally assume that not only is he a marathoner, he's a super-marathoner. And, note the use of the word "sometimes." If people are going to post these JAVA IS FASTER THAN C++ things, please make sure that a) Java and C++ experts have optimized their respective tests, b) all scientific protocols are followed, c) you're comparing apples to apples, and d) you at least give a nodding acquaintance to the real world of real users. -- The Lonewacko Blog http://lonewacko.com/blog Back to top Michael N. Christoff Guest Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:11 am    Post subject: Re: [OT] Humans are faster than horses! "Lonewackodotcom" <lonewackodotcom (AT) aol (DOT) comUNUSED> wrote Quote: Man beats horse in desert race http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/animals/newsid_1804000/1804830.stm From the article: "An American long-distance runner has proved that two legs are sometimes faster than four by beating a horse in a 50-mile race in the desert." What in that paragraph applies to the discussion of which language is faster? As opposed to your "Horses are faster than cheetahs" post which you feel DID address it? <snip> Quote: If people are going to post these JAVA IS FASTER THAN C++ things, please make sure that a) Java and C++ experts have optimized their respective tests, b) all scientific protocols are followed, c) you're comparing apples to apples, and d) you at least give a nodding acquaintance to the real world of real users. Unfortunately many average users equate Java performance with Java applets running on Microsoft's antiquated vm in IE. They equate Java graphics with the also antiquated AWT graphics system. I think many people would be shocked that Java could be faster than C++ in ANY situation, especially mathematical calculations (microbenchmarks or not). l8r, Mike N. Christoff Back to top JTK Guest Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:43 am    Post subject: Re: [OT] Humans are faster than horses! Lonewackodotcom wrote: Quote: Man beats horse in desert race http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/animals/newsid_1804000/1804830.stm From the article: "An American long-distance runner has proved that two legs are sometimes faster than four by beating a horse in a 50-mile race in the desert." What in that paragraph applies to the discussion of which language is faster? How many Americans are long-distance runners? It gets even worse when you naturally assume that not only is he a marathoner, he's a super-marathoner. And, note the use of the word "sometimes." If people are going to post these JAVA IS FASTER THAN C++ things, please make sure that a) Java and C++ experts have optimized their respective tests, b) all scientific protocols are followed, c) you're comparing apples to apples, and d) you at least give a nodding acquaintance to the real world of real users. Dont forget e) explain how interpreted code beats compiled code. Back to top Michael N. Christoff Guest Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:34 am    Post subject: Re: [OT] Humans are faster than horses! "JTK" <gsadjdg (AT) gsdajasgd (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Lonewackodotcom wrote: Man beats horse in desert race http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/animals/newsid_1804000/1804830.stm From the article: "An American long-distance runner has proved that two legs are sometimes faster than four by beating a horse in a 50-mile race in the desert." What in that paragraph applies to the discussion of which language is faster? How many Americans are long-distance runners? It gets even worse when you naturally assume that not only is he a marathoner, he's a super-marathoner. And, note the use of the word "sometimes." If people are going to post these JAVA IS FASTER THAN C++ things, please make sure that a) Java and C++ experts have optimized their respective tests, b) all scientific protocols are followed, c) you're comparing apples to apples, and d) you at least give a nodding acquaintance to the real world of real users. Dont forget e) explain how interpreted code beats compiled code. JTK, do you know what the acronym 'JIT' stands for? l8r, Mike N. Christoff Back to top The Ghost In The Machine Guest Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 8:00 pm    Post subject: Re: [OT] Humans are faster than horses! In comp.lang.java.advocacy, Michael N. Christoff <mchristoff (AT) sympatico (DOT) caREMOVETHIS> wrote on Fri, 18 Jun 2004 06:34:14 -0400 <QyzAc.51687$7H1.1742493 (AT) news20 (DOT) bellglobal.com>: Quote: "JTK" <gsadjdg (AT) gsdajasgd (DOT) com> wrote in message news:ypuAc.647$OB3.78 (AT) bgtnsc05-news (DOT) ops.worldnet.att.net... Lonewackodotcom wrote: Man beats horse in desert race http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/animals/newsid_1804000/1804830.stm From the article: "An American long-distance runner has proved that two legs are sometimes faster than four by beating a horse in a 50-mile race in the desert." What in that paragraph applies to the discussion of which language is faster? How many Americans are long-distance runners? It gets even worse when you naturally assume that not only is he a marathoner, he's a super-marathoner. And, note the use of the word "sometimes." If people are going to post these JAVA IS FASTER THAN C++ things, please make sure that a) Java and C++ experts have optimized their respective tests, b) all scientific protocols are followed, c) you're comparing apples to apples, and d) you at least give a nodding acquaintance to the real world of real users. Dont forget e) explain how interpreted code beats compiled code. JTK, do you know what the acronym 'JIT' stands for? No doubt he thinks it means "interpreted at first, then compiled later on an as-needed basis" (which is true to some extent). However, there are many factors here, and it may ultimately depend on which bits of the code are relevant and whether the compilation process is included in the execution time. The issue is also heavily dependent on optimization quality. I'm surprised C# isn't mentioned here as a comparison. AIUI, C# is similar to C++ in that it uses static optimization and compiles down to the machine code level (Java only compiles down to the interpreted bytecode level; the JIT takes care of things later on an as-needed basis). JIT has an advantage if it can take advantage of local criteria. Quote: l8r, Mike N. Christoff -- #191, [email]ewill3 (AT) earthlink (DOT) net[/email] It's still legal to go .sigless. Back to top Peter Ammon Guest Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 2:02 am    Post subject: Re: [OT] Humans are faster than horses! The Ghost In The Machine wrote: Quote: In comp.lang.java.advocacy, Michael N. Christoff [email]mchristoff (AT) sympatico (DOT) caRE[/email]MOVETHIS wrote on Fri, 18 Jun 2004 06:34:14 -0400 QyzAc.51687$7H1.1742493 (AT) news20 (DOT) bellglobal.com>: "JTK" <gsadjdg (AT) gsdajasgd (DOT) com> wrote in message news:ypuAc.647$OB3.78 (AT) bgtnsc05-news (DOT) ops.worldnet.att.net... Lonewackodotcom wrote: Man beats horse in desert race http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/animals/newsid_1804000/1804830.stm From the article: "An American long-distance runner has proved that two legs are sometimes faster than four by beating a horse in a 50-mile race in the desert." What in that paragraph applies to the discussion of which language is faster? How many Americans are long-distance runners? It gets even worse when you naturally assume that not only is he a marathoner, he's a super-marathoner. And, note the use of the word "sometimes." If people are going to post these JAVA IS FASTER THAN C++ things, please make sure that a) Java and C++ experts have optimized their respective tests, b) all scientific protocols are followed, c) you're comparing apples to apples, and d) you at least give a nodding acquaintance to the real world of real users. Dont forget e) explain how interpreted code beats compiled code. JTK, do you know what the acronym 'JIT' stands for? No doubt he thinks it means "interpreted at first, then compiled later on an as-needed basis" (which is true to some extent). However, there are many factors here, and it may ultimately depend on which bits of the code are relevant and whether the compilation process is included in the execution time. The issue is also heavily dependent on optimization quality. I'm surprised C# isn't mentioned here as a comparison. AIUI, C# is similar to C++ in that it uses static optimization and compiles down to the machine code level (Java only compiles down to the interpreted bytecode level; the JIT takes care of things later on an as-needed basis). JIT has an advantage if it can take advantage of local criteria. [...] The similarities between C# and C++ have been greatly exaggerated. C# is similar to Java in this respect. Back to top The Ghost In The Machine Guest Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:00 pm    Post subject: Re: [OT] Humans are faster than horses! In comp.lang.java.advocacy, Peter Ammon <peter_ammon (AT) rocketmail (DOT) com> wrote on Fri, 18 Jun 2004 19:02:57 -0700 <cb06sh$b3u$1 (AT) news (DOT) apple.com>: Quote: The Ghost In The Machine wrote: In comp.lang.java.advocacy, Michael N. Christoff [email]mchristoff (AT) sympatico (DOT) caRE[/email]MOVETHIS wrote on Fri, 18 Jun 2004 06:34:14 -0400 QyzAc.51687$7H1.1742493 (AT) news20 (DOT) bellglobal.com>: "JTK" <gsadjdg (AT) gsdajasgd (DOT) com> wrote in message news:ypuAc.647$OB3.78 (AT) bgtnsc05-news (DOT) ops.worldnet.att.net... Lonewackodotcom wrote: Man beats horse in desert race http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/animals/newsid_1804000/1804830.stm From the article: "An American long-distance runner has proved that two legs are sometimes faster than four by beating a horse in a 50-mile race in the desert." What in that paragraph applies to the discussion of which language is faster? How many Americans are long-distance runners? It gets even worse when you naturally assume that not only is he a marathoner, he's a super-marathoner. And, note the use of the word "sometimes." If people are going to post these JAVA IS FASTER THAN C++ things, please make sure that a) Java and C++ experts have optimized their respective tests, b) all scientific protocols are followed, c) you're comparing apples to apples, and d) you at least give a nodding acquaintance to the real world of real users. Dont forget e) explain how interpreted code beats compiled code. JTK, do you know what the acronym 'JIT' stands for? No doubt he thinks it means "interpreted at first, then compiled later on an as-needed basis" (which is true to some extent). However, there are many factors here, and it may ultimately depend on which bits of the code are relevant and whether the compilation process is included in the execution time. The issue is also heavily dependent on optimization quality. I'm surprised C# isn't mentioned here as a comparison. AIUI, C# is similar to C++ in that it uses static optimization and compiles down to the machine code level (Java only compiles down to the interpreted bytecode level; the JIT takes care of things later on an as-needed basis). JIT has an advantage if it can take advantage of local criteria. [...] The similarities between C# and C++ have been greatly exaggerated. C# is similar to Java in this respect. Except that AFAIK C# has no JIT as such, but instead compiles and optimizes down to the machine code for every routine it touches. (It's possible C# passes off the problem to some other compiler/program/processor, which compiles MSIL. However, this is not the same as java's JIT; it's done statically, prior to invoke.) The intermediate code, of course, is kept on the off-chance that it might migrate to another processor. -- #191, [email]ewill3 (AT) earthlink (DOT) net[/email] It's still legal to go .sigless. 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