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javac
Guest
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 Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 10:14 am Post subject: once I master Java, what next? ruby? smalltalk? eiffel? lang |
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just kidding 
i'm not trying to master java this evening, just mucking with tomcat
for now..
that being said, i've lurked a bit and casually followed some of the
smalltalk v. java wars. slowly i'm coming to appreciate that java
might not (gasp!) be the be-all, end-all programming language i was
hoping for.
from what i gather, smalltalk and eiffel both have genuine advantages
over java in various areas--but let's not got down that path of
"mine's bigger/better.." i'm looking for something to _augment_ my
knowledge of java, giving me a deeper understanding of "stuff." the
caveat is that i shy away from the better mouse trap because, well,
the better mouse trap doesn't sell better. I'm not looking for,
necesarilly, some academic, head-in-the-clouds, pie-in-the-sky, ivory
tower concept...i'm trying to bring home the bacon and put bread on
the table!
bit of a catch-22, but i'd like to hear some diverse opinions. i
considered cross posting, but didn't want ruffle too many feathers
without reason.
javac at mail dot com
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Peter Ammon
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: once I master Java, what next? ruby? smalltalk? eiffel? |
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javac wrote:
| Quote: | just kidding
i'm not trying to master java this evening, just mucking with tomcat
for now..
that being said, i've lurked a bit and casually followed some of the
smalltalk v. java wars. slowly i'm coming to appreciate that java
might not (gasp!) be the be-all, end-all programming language i was
hoping for.
|
No language is, of course.
| Quote: |
from what i gather, smalltalk and eiffel both have genuine advantages
over java in various areas--but let's not got down that path of
"mine's bigger/better.." i'm looking for something to _augment_ my
knowledge of java, giving me a deeper understanding of "stuff." the
caveat is that i shy away from the better mouse trap because, well,
the better mouse trap doesn't sell better. I'm not looking for,
necesarilly, some academic, head-in-the-clouds, pie-in-the-sky, ivory
tower concept...i'm trying to bring home the bacon and put bread on
the table!
bit of a catch-22, but i'd like to hear some diverse opinions. i
considered cross posting, but didn't want ruffle too many feathers
without reason.
javac at mail dot com
|
If you haven't learned a functional language yet, such as Scheme or SML
or Haskell, do so. All of those are pretty much "ivory tower"
languages, but nevertheless are very useful in a practical sense:
they'll make you a better programmer in whatever language for the rest
of your days. Since I learned SML, I write cleaner, more
straightforward, and a *lot less* code.
--
Pull out a splinter to reply.
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James A. Robertson
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: once I master Java, what next? ruby? smalltalk? eiffel? |
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On 5 Jun 2004 03:14:28 -0700, [email]javac (AT) mail (DOT) com[/email] (javac) wrote:
| Quote: | just kidding
i'm not trying to master java this evening, just mucking with tomcat
for now..
that being said, i've lurked a bit and casually followed some of the
smalltalk v. java wars. slowly i'm coming to appreciate that java
might not (gasp!) be the be-all, end-all programming language i was
hoping for.
|
If you want to try Smalltalk, the best places to start would be:
For Cincom Smalltalk (VisualWorks and ObjectStudio), non-commercial
versions
http://smalltalk.cincom.com/downloads/index.ssp
For Squeak, which is Open Source:
http://www.squeak.org
For a list of other implementations, visit:
http://www.whysmalltalk.com
If you want to see what Smalltalk bloggers have to say, have a look
here:
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs
Smalltalk is different from Java in many respects, and will certainly
give you an opportunity to explore the way dynamic language
development works
| Quote: | from what i gather, smalltalk and eiffel both have genuine advantages
over java in various areas--but let's not got down that path of
"mine's bigger/better.." i'm looking for something to _augment_ my
knowledge of java, giving me a deeper understanding of "stuff." the
caveat is that i shy away from the better mouse trap because, well,
the better mouse trap doesn't sell better. I'm not looking for,
necesarilly, some academic, head-in-the-clouds, pie-in-the-sky, ivory
tower concept...i'm trying to bring home the bacon and put bread on
the table!
bit of a catch-22, but i'd like to hear some diverse opinions. i
considered cross posting, but didn't want ruffle too many feathers
without reason.
javac at mail dot com
|
<Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
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Chris
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 8:45 am Post subject: Re: once I master Java, what next? ruby? smalltalk? eiffel? |
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| Quote: | from what i gather, smalltalk and eiffel both have genuine advantages
over java in various areas--but let's not got down that path of
"mine's bigger/better.." i'm looking for something to _augment_ my
knowledge of java, giving me a deeper understanding of "stuff." the
caveat is that i shy away from the better mouse trap because, well,
the better mouse trap doesn't sell better. I'm not looking for,
necesarilly, some academic, head-in-the-clouds, pie-in-the-sky, ivory
tower concept...i'm trying to bring home the bacon and put bread on
the table!
|
In terms of 'bringing home the bacon', well you only have to look at
the job market - you won't find many Smalltalk or Eiffel jobs out
there (20 across the whole of Europe at the moment, and all hybrid
with Java, .net, etc).
However, Smalltalk (and to a lesser extent Eiffel IMHO) is a truer OO
language and well worth a dabble to improve your understanding of OOD.
- sarge
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javac
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 5:11 am Post subject: Re: once I master Java, what next? ruby? smalltalk? eiffel? |
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any thoughts other than smalltalk and eiffel? languageX?
javac at mail dot com
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javac
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 5:12 am Post subject: Re: once I master Java, what next? ruby? smalltalk? eiffel? |
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Peter Ammon <gershwin (AT) splintermac (DOT) com> wrote
[..]
| Quote: | If you haven't learned a functional language yet, such as Scheme or SML
or Haskell, do so. All of those are pretty much "ivory tower"
languages, but nevertheless are very useful in a practical sense:
they'll make you a better programmer in whatever language for the rest
of your days. Since I learned SML, I write cleaner, more
straightforward, and a *lot less* code.
|
what's a functional language?
javac at mail dot com
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hading@hading.dnsalias.co
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: once I master Java, what next? ruby? smalltalk? eiffel? |
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[email]javac (AT) mail (DOT) com[/email] (javac) writes:
| Quote: | what's a functional language?
|
A language that supports functional programming. :-)
For further details, you might consult something like the following
paper, entitled "Why Functional Programming Matters.":
http://www.md.chalmers.se/~rjmh/Papers/whyfp.pdf
The introduction contains a reasonably consise description of what
functional programming is about.
--
Howard Ding
<hading (AT) hading (DOT) dnsalias.com>
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JTK
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:53 am Post subject: Re: once I master Java, what next? ruby? smalltalk? eiffel? |
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javac wrote:
| Quote: | just kidding
i'm not trying to master java this evening, just mucking with tomcat
for now..
that being said, i've lurked a bit and casually followed some of the
smalltalk v. java wars. slowly i'm coming to appreciate that java
might not (gasp!) be the be-all, end-all programming language i was
hoping for.
from what i gather, smalltalk and eiffel both have genuine advantages
over java in various areas--but let's not got down that path of
"mine's bigger/better.." i'm looking for something to _augment_ my
knowledge of java, giving me a deeper understanding of "stuff." the
caveat is that i shy away from the better mouse trap because, well,
the better mouse trap doesn't sell better. I'm not looking for,
necesarilly, some academic, head-in-the-clouds, pie-in-the-sky, ivory
tower concept...i'm trying to bring home the bacon and put bread on
the table!
bit of a catch-22, but i'd like to hear some diverse opinions. i
considered cross posting, but didn't want ruffle too many feathers
without reason.
javac at mail dot com
|
The answer is obvious, though you won't hear it here from anybody but
me. Once you've mastered "Fischer Price C++" (i.e. Java), move on to
the real thing.
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William Brogden
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: once I master Java, what next? ruby? smalltalk? eiffel? |
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On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 05:53:53 GMT, JTK <gsadjdg (AT) gsdajasgd (DOT) com> wrote:
| Quote: | javac wrote:
just kidding
i'm not trying to master java this evening, just mucking with tomcat
for now..
that being said, i've lurked a bit and casually followed some of the
smalltalk v. java wars. slowly i'm coming to appreciate that java
might not (gasp!) be the be-all, end-all programming language i was
hoping for.
from what i gather, smalltalk and eiffel both have genuine advantages
over java in various areas--but let's not got down that path of
"mine's bigger/better.." i'm looking for something to _augment_ my
knowledge of java, giving me a deeper understanding of "stuff." the
caveat is that i shy away from the better mouse trap because, well,
the better mouse trap doesn't sell better. I'm not looking for,
necesarilly, some academic, head-in-the-clouds, pie-in-the-sky, ivory
tower concept...i'm trying to bring home the bacon and put bread on
the table!
bit of a catch-22, but i'd like to hear some diverse opinions. i
considered cross posting, but didn't want ruffle too many feathers
without reason.
javac at mail dot com
The answer is obvious, though you won't hear it here from anybody but
me. Once you've mastered "Fischer Price C++" (i.e. Java), move on to
the real thing.
|
Wow - is that the new party line? Did some new directive come
out from MS that "Java is dead" is no longer the party line
and you should now use "Java is a toy" in your quote of FUD?
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
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The Ghost In The Machine
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: once I master Java, what next? ruby? smalltalk? eiffel? |
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In comp.lang.java.advocacy, William Brogden
<wbrogden (AT) bga (DOT) com>
wrote
on Thu, 10 Jun 2004 07:36:20 -0500
<opr9dpauayu0i8d5 (AT) giga (DOT) realtime.net>:
| Quote: | On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 05:53:53 GMT, JTK <gsadjdg (AT) gsdajasgd (DOT) com> wrote:
javac wrote:
just kidding
i'm not trying to master java this evening, just mucking with tomcat
for now..
that being said, i've lurked a bit and casually followed some of the
smalltalk v. java wars. slowly i'm coming to appreciate that java
might not (gasp!) be the be-all, end-all programming language i was
hoping for.
from what i gather, smalltalk and eiffel both have genuine advantages
over java in various areas--but let's not got down that path of
"mine's bigger/better.." i'm looking for something to _augment_ my
knowledge of java, giving me a deeper understanding of "stuff." the
caveat is that i shy away from the better mouse trap because, well,
the better mouse trap doesn't sell better. I'm not looking for,
necesarilly, some academic, head-in-the-clouds, pie-in-the-sky, ivory
tower concept...i'm trying to bring home the bacon and put bread on
the table!
bit of a catch-22, but i'd like to hear some diverse opinions. i
considered cross posting, but didn't want ruffle too many feathers
without reason.
javac at mail dot com
The answer is obvious, though you won't hear it here from anybody but
me. Once you've mastered "Fischer Price C++" (i.e. Java), move on to
the real thing.
Wow - is that the new party line? Did some new directive come
out from MS that "Java is dead" is no longer the party line
and you should now use "Java is a toy" in your quote of FUD?
|
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you,
then you win".
-- Ghandi
:-)
As it is, I was under the impression that everyone should be using
C#, from the proud makes of the TeleTubby Operating System
and Microsoft BO[m]B.
(Personally, I'm not *that* fond of Java -- it's bulky but very
rich in functionality -- or of Sun, who isn't looking all that
healthy as a corporation, but C# looks even more problematic.)
[.sigsnip]
--
#191, [email]ewill3 (AT) earthlink (DOT) net[/email]
It's still legal to go .sigless.
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Tom Shelton
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:16 am Post subject: Re: once I master Java, what next? ruby? smalltalk? eiffel? |
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On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:00:18 GMT, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
| Quote: | In comp.lang.java.advocacy, William Brogden
[email]wbrogden (AT) bga (DOT) com[/email]
wrote
on Thu, 10 Jun 2004 07:36:20 -0500
[email]opr9dpauayu0i8d5 (AT) giga (DOT) realtime.net[/email]>:
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 05:53:53 GMT, JTK <gsadjdg (AT) gsdajasgd (DOT) com> wrote:
javac wrote:
just kidding
i'm not trying to master java this evening, just mucking with tomcat
for now..
that being said, i've lurked a bit and casually followed some of the
smalltalk v. java wars. slowly i'm coming to appreciate that java
might not (gasp!) be the be-all, end-all programming language i was
hoping for.
from what i gather, smalltalk and eiffel both have genuine advantages
over java in various areas--but let's not got down that path of
"mine's bigger/better.." i'm looking for something to _augment_ my
knowledge of java, giving me a deeper understanding of "stuff." the
caveat is that i shy away from the better mouse trap because, well,
the better mouse trap doesn't sell better. I'm not looking for,
necesarilly, some academic, head-in-the-clouds, pie-in-the-sky, ivory
tower concept...i'm trying to bring home the bacon and put bread on
the table!
bit of a catch-22, but i'd like to hear some diverse opinions. i
considered cross posting, but didn't want ruffle too many feathers
without reason.
javac at mail dot com
The answer is obvious, though you won't hear it here from anybody but
me. Once you've mastered "Fischer Price C++" (i.e. Java), move on to
the real thing.
Wow - is that the new party line? Did some new directive come
out from MS that "Java is dead" is no longer the party line
and you should now use "Java is a toy" in your quote of FUD?
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you,
then you win".
-- Ghandi
:-)
As it is, I was under the impression that everyone should be using
C#, from the proud makes of the TeleTubby Operating System
and Microsoft BO[m]B.
(Personally, I'm not *that* fond of Java -- it's bulky but very
rich in functionality -- or of Sun, who isn't looking all that
healthy as a corporation, but C# looks even more problematic.)
|
In what ways?
--
Tom Shelton
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javac
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:00 am Post subject: Re: once I master Java, what next? ruby? smalltalk? eiffel? |
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The Ghost In The Machine <ewill (AT) aurigae (DOT) athghost7038suus.net> wrote
[..]
| Quote: | (Personally, I'm not *that* fond of Java -- it's bulky but very
rich in functionality -- or of Sun, who isn't looking all that
healthy as a corporation, but C# looks even more problematic.)
[..] |
having used the gcc fortran 77 compiler (g77?) i really like the idea
of an "open" language. not sure what i mean by that, but one
psychological drawback to java/c# is that they're both tied to a
particular corporation. it's a sort of vendor-lock-in i'd rather
avoid. that being said, it'd be interesting if corporation x were to
introduce a language directly competing agains sun & microsoft.
javac at mail dot com
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WLad
Guest
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The Ghost In The Machine
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: once I master Java, what next? ruby? smalltalk? eiffel? |
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|
In comp.lang.java.advocacy, Tom Shelton
<tom (AT) YOUKNOWTHEDRILLmtogden (DOT) com>
wrote
on Thu, 10 Jun 2004 23:16:49 -0600
<1jca5lrdp9vbi.1an2fmaj56lxu.dlg (AT) 40tude (DOT) net>:
| Quote: | On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:00:18 GMT, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
In comp.lang.java.advocacy, William Brogden
[email]wbrogden (AT) bga (DOT) com[/email]
wrote
on Thu, 10 Jun 2004 07:36:20 -0500
[email]opr9dpauayu0i8d5 (AT) giga (DOT) realtime.net[/email]>:
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 05:53:53 GMT, JTK <gsadjdg (AT) gsdajasgd (DOT) com> wrote:
javac wrote:
just kidding
i'm not trying to master java this evening, just mucking with tomcat
for now..
that being said, i've lurked a bit and casually followed some of the
smalltalk v. java wars. slowly i'm coming to appreciate that java
might not (gasp!) be the be-all, end-all programming language i was
hoping for.
from what i gather, smalltalk and eiffel both have genuine advantages
over java in various areas--but let's not got down that path of
"mine's bigger/better.." i'm looking for something to _augment_ my
knowledge of java, giving me a deeper understanding of "stuff." the
caveat is that i shy away from the better mouse trap because, well,
the better mouse trap doesn't sell better. I'm not looking for,
necesarilly, some academic, head-in-the-clouds, pie-in-the-sky, ivory
tower concept...i'm trying to bring home the bacon and put bread on
the table!
bit of a catch-22, but i'd like to hear some diverse opinions. i
considered cross posting, but didn't want ruffle too many feathers
without reason.
javac at mail dot com
The answer is obvious, though you won't hear it here from anybody but
me. Once you've mastered "Fischer Price C++" (i.e. Java), move on to
the real thing.
Wow - is that the new party line? Did some new directive come
out from MS that "Java is dead" is no longer the party line
and you should now use "Java is a toy" in your quote of FUD?
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you,
then you win".
-- Ghandi
:-)
As it is, I was under the impression that everyone should be using
C#, from the proud makes of the TeleTubby Operating System
and Microsoft BO[m]B.
(Personally, I'm not *that* fond of Java -- it's bulky but very
rich in functionality -- or of Sun, who isn't looking all that
healthy as a corporation, but C# looks even more problematic.)
In what ways?
|
Well the main complaint I have against it is that it's from Microsoft.
Trustworthiness isn't exactly the first thing that comes to mind.
(Presumably you remember J++. I'd just as soon not but it sticks in
my mind.)
However, that's not a complaint against the language itself. The
main thing appears to be that C# differentiates between structures
and classes, passing the first by value and the second by reference.
This is a problem waiting to happen if a structure mutates into a class.
C++ passes everything by value (unless '&' is specified).
Java doesn't have a struct. C doesn't have a class.
Properties look interesting. Automutating a property access
or assignment into a function call looks like a possible
performance hit, though.
I would probably have difficulties migrating from Java to C#, if only
because I've migrated before (Unix to Aegis, now known as DomainOS).
The keywords are just sufficiently similar to be confusing and just
sufficiently different to be annoying. (This from my admittedly
extremely limited gleanings from code snippets and such.)
I'm not sure who's winning the Performance Wars at this point.
Java may be bulky, but it's as fast as C++ now once it gets moving.
And C# is not Microsoft-specific anymore (not since Mono), although
certain sublibraries (WinForms) may be. I don't know if C# is a
trap or not -- and that in itself might slow its adoption in
certain corporate structures. How do we know if, once C# is
picked, one isn't stuck with C# forever?
The same issue exists with Java, although both languages
have "outs". (IBM provides jikes. Kaffe is still out
there as a OSS solution. Mono, of course, provides a
partly-compatible (mostly-compatible?) C# solution. I say
"partly" because not all parts of the library are or can
be implemented therein -- because of patents.)
--
#191, [email]ewill3 (AT) earthlink (DOT) net[/email]
It's still legal to go .sigless.
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The Ghost In The Machine
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: once I master Java, what next? ruby? smalltalk? eiffel? |
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|
In comp.lang.java.advocacy, javac
<javac (AT) mail (DOT) com>
wrote
on 11 Jun 2004 00:00:42 -0700
<64d923a9.0406102300.487d632b (AT) posting (DOT) google.com>:
| Quote: | The Ghost In The Machine <ewill (AT) aurigae (DOT) athghost7038suus.net> wrote
[..]
(Personally, I'm not *that* fond of Java -- it's bulky but very
rich in functionality -- or of Sun, who isn't looking all that
healthy as a corporation, but C# looks even more problematic.)
[..]
having used the gcc fortran 77 compiler (g77?) i really like the idea
of an "open" language. not sure what i mean by that, but one
psychological drawback to java/c# is that they're both tied to a
particular corporation. it's a sort of vendor-lock-in i'd rather
avoid. that being said, it'd be interesting if corporation x were to
introduce a language directly competing agains sun & microsoft.
javac at mail dot com
|
C# is not locked into a vendor, only certain sublibraries -- sublibraries,
admittedly, which form the bulk of the value-add, such as WinForms.
At least, such is my understanding. Gtk# is gaining some traction.
Assuming Gtk is ported to Windows (and I don't see why not; GIMP,
after all, runs on Windows) things could get rather interesting.
--
#191, [email]ewill3 (AT) earthlink (DOT) net[/email]
It's still legal to go .sigless.
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