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Berlin Brown
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 Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:44 am Post subject: Now, the need for advocacy |
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You know I kind of forgot about this forum. it has been a while. But
with all of the opensource zealots taking a direct stab at Java (who
really knows why), this is a great time for advocacy.
Since, I havent been here in a while; you might want to fill me on the
responses to the Haskell/Lisp/Rails people.
To me, these tools are great, but for practical enterprise web?
application development; Java is still going to be king with .NET
behind it.
I posted this on reddit a while back, got almost 200 responses:
http://programming.reddit.com/info/utqb/comments
Bot Berlin
http://www.botspiritcompany.com/botlist |
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Lion-O
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:18 am Post subject: Re: Now, the need for advocacy |
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| Quote: | You know I kind of forgot about this forum.
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Hmm, I'd be more tempted to call this a usenet group but hey ;)
| Quote: | it has been a while. But with all of the opensource zealots taking a direct
stab at Java (who really knows why), this is a great time for advocacy.
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Isn't that a little too little too late? ;-)
While I do agree that many people kept whining about the sourcecode not being
available even though it has been available for years now (which ofcourse at a
later time when more people finally came to realize this was quickly changed to
"the policy sucks") its still become a moot point now that Sun started to
release parts of the Java language under the GPL.
| Quote: | I posted this on reddit a while back, got almost 200 responses:
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<cut>
Maybe you should consider getting another hobby, trolling and spamming is SOOO
passe.
And well; commenting on Java ("it should just die") just because you're not
competent enough to do the things you want really displays a very childish
attitude. Blame the tool, not the programmer.. Well, at least that clears a
lot up and also indicates the value of this whole thread.
sorry bub; this has been done a zillion times now and its just boring.
--
Groetjes, Peter
..\\ PGP/GPG key: http://www.catslair.org/pubkey.asc |
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Berlin Brown
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:05 am Post subject: Re: Now, the need for advocacy |
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Lion-O wrote:
| Quote: | You know I kind of forgot about this forum.
Hmm, I'd be more tempted to call this a usenet group but hey ;)
it has been a while. But with all of the opensource zealots taking a direct
stab at Java (who really knows why), this is a great time for advocacy.
Isn't that a little too little too late? ;-)
While I do agree that many people kept whining about the sourcecode not being
available even though it has been available for years now (which ofcourse at a
later time when more people finally came to realize this was quickly changed to
"the policy sucks") its still become a moot point now that Sun started to
release parts of the Java language under the GPL.
I posted this on reddit a while back, got almost 200 responses:
cut
Maybe you should consider getting another hobby, trolling and spamming is SOOO
passe.
And well; commenting on Java ("it should just die") just because you're not
competent enough to do the things you want really displays a very childish
attitude. Blame the tool, not the programmer.. Well, at least that clears a
lot up and also indicates the value of this whole thread.
sorry bub; this has been done a zillion times now and its just boring.
--
Groetjes, Peter
.\\ PGP/GPG key: http://www.catslair.org/pubkey.asc
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Hehe, where did I say it just die. I was the only defending java. I
was asking the question;
"Why do you guys hate java so much"
"Why do so many reddit users hate java? "
It makes an interesting read.
http://programming.reddit.com/info/utqb/comments |
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Lion-O
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:59 am Post subject: Re: Now, the need for advocacy |
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| Quote: | Maybe you should consider getting another hobby, trolling and spamming is
SOOO passe.
And well; commenting on Java ("it should just die") just because you're not
competent enough to do the things you want really displays a very childish
attitude. Blame the tool, not the programmer.. Well, at least that clears a
lot up and also indicates the value of this whole thread.
sorry bub; this has been done a zillion times now and its just boring.
Hehe, where did I say it just die. I was the only defending java. I
was asking the question;
"Why do you guys hate java so much"
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Aaaah. Guess I owe you an apoligy and should hereby re-direct my earlier
comments to that Julian Morrison person. Oh well, I checked and sorta assumed
that the first post in that thread was yours.
Yeah, when putting it into that context I have to admit that this is a lot more
interesting than I first anticipated. Note; (in case you didn't realize yet)
I'm not familiar with this website.
Well, to get us into a more advocating thread (which this place could really
use IMVHO); I think its a combination of a few Java issues. Some consider Java
'easy' and IMO they're right there since the language is easy to pick up,
relatively easy to apply and what I like best (but I guess that probably
applies to most OO languages): its relatively easy to break a complex problem
down into smaller parts and then tackle each part individually.
If you do that right (in an OO style manner) you'll end up with seperate
"building blocks" which you can then easily assemble together to solve the
bigger problem brick by brick. However, this /also/ implies that in a few cases
there is no way around some heavy coding (heavy in quantity). Just take
assembler; many people will agree that its very powerfull; there's hardly
anything you cannot do with it. The only problem is that its tedious to write.
A mere "hello world" can take up quite a few lines of code (at least 11  ).
I somewhat put Java into that category. When looking at EE programming
(javabeans for example) you'll have to apply certain standards which
automaticly implies that in some cases you might be producing more code than
needed to fix the problem merely to comply with the given standards. Some
people consider that too tedious and therefor won't bother. I consider that
short minded thinking since its really not that hard to build up a library or
template collection which you can use as some sort of skeleton when trying to
set something up.
And ofcourse the IDE environment pops up with that idea...
For example, lets pick out this post:
--- [ Post from earlier mentioned website ] ---
Trivial example. I want an immutable pure data object with fields. At the very
smallest, I use public final fields and set them in the constructor. That means
though that I have to mention every field four times and mention its type
twice, as well as mentioning the class name twice:
public class DataObject {
public final int a;
public DataObject(int a) {
this.a = a;
}
}
It's worse if I want setters.
Yes Eclipse can generate the above. Not this is not an excuse. I still have to
read past all that line noise if I want to maintain the class.
Now, it would be fairly trivial to make a Ruby mixin that would let me do:
class DataObject
attr_reader a
include InitializeReadOnly
end
and then
d = DataObject.new 42
....but there's no way to have that kind of flexibility in Java, at least not
without resorting to a bytecode enhancer, a precompiler or a computed proxy.
--- [ EOP ] ---
I once again disagree with a passion. When it comes to readability the code he
creates first is much more to the point than the second code snipplet. Ofcourse
this guy is an idiot when it comes to Java since "final" means just that. You
cannot assign a new value to a final variable.
Which immediatly brings me to: how well do people who criticize Java actually
know it? Sure, Java will have its flaws just like any language. But is it fair
to portrait a language in the lights of another?
I don't think so ;)
--
Groetjes, Peter
..\\ PGP/GPG key: http://www.catslair.org/pubkey.asc |
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Jeroen Wenting
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: Now, the need for advocacy |
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| Quote: |
...but there's no way to have that kind of flexibility in Java, at least
not
without resorting to a bytecode enhancer, a precompiler or a computed
proxy.
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simple: if you want a non-typed language, don't use Java (or C, C++, Pascal,
etc. etc. etc.).
Of course this kind of kid is just the kind who screams their demands for
making Java into Ruby that we see a lot these days.
| Quote: | --- [ EOP ] ---
I once again disagree with a passion. When it comes to readability the
code he
creates first is much more to the point than the second code snipplet.
Ofcourse
this guy is an idiot when it comes to Java since "final" means just that.
You
cannot assign a new value to a final variable.
Which immediatly brings me to: how well do people who criticize Java
actually
know it? Sure, Java will have its flaws just like any language. But is it
fair
to portrait a language in the lights of another?
I don't think so ;)
|
That's exactly what the kids do. And Sun is picking up on that and adding
everything to Java that any other language has.
The score so far:
generics, autoboxing, embedded database engine, embedded webserver,
metaprogramming.
coming soon: function pointers, implicit getters and setters ("properties"). |
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Berlin Brown
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: Now, the need for advocacy |
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Jeroen Wenting wrote:
| Quote: |
...but there's no way to have that kind of flexibility in Java, at least
not
without resorting to a bytecode enhancer, a precompiler or a computed
proxy.
simple: if you want a non-typed language, don't use Java (or C, C++, Pascal,
etc. etc. etc.).
Of course this kind of kid is just the kind who screams their demands for
making Java into Ruby that we see a lot these days.
--- [ EOP ] ---
I once again disagree with a passion. When it comes to readability the
code he
creates first is much more to the point than the second code snipplet.
Ofcourse
this guy is an idiot when it comes to Java since "final" means just that.
You
cannot assign a new value to a final variable.
Which immediatly brings me to: how well do people who criticize Java
actually
know it? Sure, Java will have its flaws just like any language. But is it
fair
to portrait a language in the lights of another?
I don't think so ;)
That's exactly what the kids do. And Sun is picking up on that and adding
everything to Java that any other language has.
The score so far:
generics, autoboxing, embedded database engine, embedded webserver,
metaprogramming.
coming soon: function pointers, implicit getters and setters ("properties").
|
What about all the languages that exist on the JVM. JRuby, Jython,
Scala, on and on.
I kind of feel sorry for Sun. They created a technology that is
pervasive, practical and easy to use. But there were some flaws early
on that seemed to have rubbed some alpha hackers the wrong way. I
still use it, make money using it and will probably continue to use it.
Bot Berlin
http://www.botspiritcompany.com/botlist |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Now, the need for advocacy |
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On Jan 11, 4:44 pm, "Berlin Brown" <berlin.br...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | You know I kind of forgot about this forum. it has been a while. But
with all of the opensource zealots taking a direct stab at Java (who
really knows why), this is a great time for advocacy.
|
did i miss something? i thought parts of java were open sourced (not
that any of that affected me much - lol)..... |
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