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Andrew Thompson
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 Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:16 pm Post subject: Lurking in c.l.j.programmer is good! |
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Just a point that readers of c.l.j.help might get
good value from *lurking*[1] in comp.lang.java.programmer[2].
[1] Lurking might be *bad* when you do it outside the
neighbour's bathroom window, but in Usenet newsgroups
it is a *good* thing. It simply means 'read but not post'.
This helps give an idea of the nature of the group, and
also gives access to ideas and information at a more
advanced level.
[2] Ultimately c.l.j.programmer has a higher 'signal to noise'
ratio than c.l.j.help, for a number of reasons..
- There are experienced devlopers who post there,
who do not have time to read c.l.j.help.
- Bad solutions are stomped on when presented in c.l.j.programmer,
whereas the politeness and restraint of posters on c.l.j.help
makes the message much less clear. A comment like 'that is
the single worst way to approach this problem' on c.l.j.p
might become 'that is not the best approach' on c.l.j.help!
For those posting through a web interface who might
be unclear of the differences, here are the URL's of
both forums in two popular web interfaces.
comp.lang.java.help
<http://www.javakb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/java-setup/200507/1>
<http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.help>
comp.lang.java.programmer
<http://www.javakb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/java-general/200507/1>
<http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.programmer>
A thought for your consideration.
HTH
--
Andrew Thompson
http://www.PhySci.org/codes/ Web & IT Help
http://www.PhySci.org/ Open-source software suite
http://www.1point1C.org/ Science & Technology
http://www.LensEscapes.com/ Images that escape the mundane
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iamfractal@hotmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: Lurking in c.l.j.programmer is good! |
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Excellent meta-advice.
..ed
www.EdmundKirwan.com - Home of The Fractal Class Composition
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Thomas G. Marshall
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:36 am Post subject: Re: Lurking in c.l.j.programmer is good! |
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Andrew Thompson coughed up:
| Quote: | Just a point that readers of c.l.j.help might get
good value from *lurking*[1] in comp.lang.java.programmer[2].
|
....[rip]...
| Quote: | [2] Ultimately c.l.j.programmer has a higher 'signal to noise'
ratio than c.l.j.help, for a number of reasons..
- There are experienced devlopers who post there,
who do not have time to read c.l.j.help.
|
....[rip]...
I very much like this post of yours, but I'm still worried about a rush to
assume that .help is for beginners. True, newsgroups are results of
common-usage, but I just don't think that the vast majority of users out
there follow any such rule, and that attempts at getting them to follow it
might be an uphill battle for no great reason. Not sure.
As I've pointed out before, and as you certainly know, there is no such
"beginner" description of the c.l.j.help ng in the monthly posted "official"
list of big-8 newsgroups:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/news.announce.newgroups/msg/b1fa3e7b8039a5a4
comp.lang.java.3d 3D Graphics API's for the Java language.
comp.lang.java.advocacy Support for and criticism of the Java System.
comp.lang.java.announce Announcements re the Java System. (Moderated)
comp.lang.java.beans Java software components (JavaBeans).
comp.lang.java.corba Topics relating to Java and CORBA.
comp.lang.java.databases Databases, java.sql, JDBC, ODBC.
comp.lang.java.gui GUI toolkits and windowing: AWT, IFC etc.
*comp.lang.java.help* *Set-up problems, catch-all first aid*
comp.lang.java.machine JVM, native methods, hardware.
comp.lang.java.programmer Programming in the Java language.
comp.lang.java.security Security issues raised by Java.
comp.lang.java.softwaretools IDEs, browsers, compilers, other tools.
That is, I believe that this shows that c.l.j.help was not envisioned as a
beginner area.
Now the fact that it lists "set-up problems" as an option might lure
beginners, but I'm not at all convinced that that is a clear enough signal
of who should encouraged to be in what newsgroup.
{shrug}
--
Framsticks. 3D Artificial Life evolution. You can see the creatures
that evolve and how they interact, hunt, swim, etc. (Unaffiliated with
me). http://www.frams.alife.pl/
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Andrew Thompson
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:13 am Post subject: Re: Lurking in c.l.j.programmer is good! |
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On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 00:36:11 GMT, Thomas G. Marshall wrote:
| Quote: | That is, I believe that this shows that c.l.j.help was not envisioned as a
beginner area.
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FWIW - I agree. However I feel it it the best place to
start and I (for one) will encourage people to 'get their
feet wet' here, rather than c.l.j.p.
In the absence of one or more people to counter any trend
caused by myself and others who feel this *is* a good starter
forum, it seems it will become a 'de facto' help group in any
case.
| Quote: | Now the fact that it lists "set-up problems" as an option might lure
beginners, but I'm not at all convinced that that is a clear enough signal
of who should encouraged to be in what newsgroup.
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Whether those existing group descriptions (and the groups
themselves) are optimal is beyond my immediate control
(or concern). I intend to focus on 'what works', so
will continue to encourage Java beginners into this group.
[1] To any who will suggest I start 'founding' new, better
described and quantified usenet newsgroups, my reply is -
"Don't be silly!".
- It seems we already have enough (some of the existing
groups are disturbingly quiet).
- On that basis alone I would vote *against* any[2] proposals
for new groups on the comp.lang.java hierarchy.
- Founding a (Big  newsgroup is no simple feat, it requires a
great deal of administration, consultation and voting.
[ Besides - for my own part. I have time in life for
many things, but founding NG's is not one of them. ]
[2] Except *maybe* for a group focusing on J2EE, but I
suspect it is still too early for a J2EE group to be viable..
--
Andrew Thompson
http://www.PhySci.org/codes/ Web & IT Help
http://www.PhySci.org/ Open-source software suite
http://www.1point1C.org/ Science & Technology
http://www.LensEscapes.com/ Images that escape the mundane
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Thomas G. Marshall
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:30 am Post subject: Re: Lurking in c.l.j.programmer is good! |
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Andrew Thompson coughed up:
....[rip]...
| Quote: | "Don't be silly!".
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Personally, I am similarly worried that adding groups is no longer an
answer, since we have dreck upon dreck....
But I would contend that we could probably do well with at least two things
to happen:
1. reinstate comp.lang.java as the catch-all. It's highly used anyway, and
I really think many folks don't even "look around" nor know how to find
other groups. If someone is into the programming language
kjlasdfjlkasdfasdflkjasdfasdlk then they typically go first to
"comp.lang.kjlasdfjlkasdfasdflkjasdfasdlk" whether or not it is official.
2. Add: comp.lang.java.beginner.
{shrug}
....[rip]...
--
Having a dog that is a purebred does not qualify it for breeding. Dogs
need to have several generations of clearances for various illnesses
before being bred. If you are breeding dogs without taking care as to
the genetic quality of the dog (again, being purebred is *not* enough),
you are what is known as a "backyard breeder" and are part of the
problem. Most of the congenital problems of present day dogs are
traceable directly to backyard breeding. Spay or neuter your pet
responsibly, and don't just think that you're somehow the exception and
can breed a dog without taking the care described.
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