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asj
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 Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 4:41 am Post subject: Java siege mentality |
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It just hit me this morning why some Java people have such raging
insecurities about their platform (just check out javalobby.org for
the weekly groaning and griping and worrying) - it's because EVERYONE
(and I do mean everyone) is out to get us. No wonder I sometimes wake
up and feel like I have an ulcer after scanning the morning news - now
I know what it feels like to be those poor sobs at LOTR's Helm's Deep.
On the one side you've got Microsoft and its faceless minions, who are
trying repeatedly to scale the ramparts, to no avail. On the other
side you have the hordes of open source advocates who vociferously
push down Java (and secretly have minor orgasms whenever some rag or
the other declares "Java is dead" - which by the way has been
happening repeatedly since the 1990s), while at the same time
clamoring for Sun to open source their crown jewel. Then there are the
sniffy idealists who wallow in Smalltalk or Eiffel or whetever, who
openly despise Java for its commercialism and alleged deficiencies,
while at the same time secretly wishing their own language had half
the popularity of their nemesis. Finally, you get boneheads like
Cringeley in the news media, who wouldn't know a valid prediction if
it hit him on the noggin, but whose idea of a good story would be
another "Java is screwed by (place your new problem here)" article
that would garner lots of publicity and ensure his "rightful" place in
the pantheon of name-seeking journalists.
To which I say: "Bring 'em on!" Java may not be the best programming
solution for everything, but because its core purpose is tied toward
ubiquity and its democratic nature does not tie it solidly behind one
company, sooner or later, most everything will be running some form of
Java. With Java smartcards pouring out in the hundreds of millions and
becoming a daily part of the lives of hundreds of millions of people
around the world, Java solidifying its hold on consumer mobiles and
creeping into the enterprise, Java on servers holding pride of place
as THE number one enterprise solution, and with Java on the desktop
poised for a quiet revival as the desktop environment diversifies,
we're well on the way to breaking the siege.
http://www.jroller.com/page/kalimantan/20040427#java_siege_mentality
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Tom Shelton
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 4:54 am Post subject: Re: Java siege mentality |
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["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.advocacy.]
On 2004-04-29, asj <asj (AT) blueboard (DOT) com> wrote:
| Quote: | It just hit me this morning why some Java people have such raging
insecurities about their platform (just check out javalobby.org for
the weekly groaning and griping and worrying) - it's because EVERYONE
(and I do mean everyone) is out to get us. No wonder I sometimes wake
up and feel like I have an ulcer after scanning the morning news - now
I know what it feels like to be those poor sobs at LOTR's Helm's Deep.
|
Way to rally the troops there, Aragorn... LOL.
--
Tom Shelton
Powered By Gentoo Linux 1.4
The best way to accelerate a Macintoy is at 9.8 meters per second per second.
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Pho tai, bo vien
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 4:55 am Post subject: Re: Java siege mentality |
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asj wrote:
| Quote: | It just hit me this morning why some Java people have such raging
insecurities about their platform (just check out javalobby.org for
the weekly groaning and griping and worrying) - it's because EVERYONE
(and I do mean everyone) is out to get us. No wonder I sometimes wake
up and feel like I have an ulcer after scanning the morning news - now
I know what it feels like to be those poor sobs at LOTR's Helm's Deep.
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java is shit.
..NET, mono, dotgnu are far superior.
If you want to take your old java and hide in a cabin in Idaho
Kozinski style, be my guest. We won't disturb you.
--
W '04 <:> Open
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Panama Red
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:42 am Post subject: Re: Java siege mentality |
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I believe it was asj who said...
| Quote: | It just hit me this morning why some Java people have such raging
insecurities about their platform (just check out javalobby.org for
the weekly groaning and griping and worrying) - it's because EVERYONE
(and I do mean everyone) is out to get us.
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I wish Java would go away.
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Roedy Green
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 6:36 am Post subject: Re: Java siege mentality |
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On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 05:42:46 GMT, Panama Red
<complaintdepartment2002 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote or quoted :
| Quote: | I wish Java would go away.
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This tells us something about you, but nothing about Java. The topic
of this newsgroup is Java, not you.
If you must troll, at least give REASON for your opinions.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
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Geoffrey Holder
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 6:37 am Post subject: Re: Java siege mentality |
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Roedy Green wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 05:42:46 GMT, Panama Red
[email]complaintdepartment2002 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com[/email]> wrote or quoted :
I wish Java would go away.
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AHHH, The UN_Cola.
Made with Un Cola Nuts.
Ahhhhhhh
--
W '04 <:> Open
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Mike B
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: Java siege mentality |
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On 28 Apr 2004 21:41:28 -0700, [email]asj (AT) blueboard (DOT) com[/email] (asj) wrote:
| Quote: | and with Java on the desktop
poised for a quiet revival as the desktop environment diversifies,
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Not until everyone has a multi GHz PC with 512+ MB of memory - perhaps 7+
years from now.
Developers often argue that Java GUI applications are as usable as native
applications. What they forget is that a typical development machine is at
the upper end of the performance scale whereas many end users (even in a
corporate environment) are using machines that belong in a museum - their
hardware only get upgraded/replaced when it breaks down.
The only desktop Java application that I use at work is a commercial "time
sheet" applet that takes 10 seconds to start and is a memory hog. A browser
based version using a _Java_ back end would be so much more responsive, and
memory friendly.
In the short term I can see a period where GUI applications are split into
two parts, with the screen drawing handled by thin native applications
(hopefully something more advanced than the primitive web browser concept),
and the business logic handled by a virtual machine running on the _same_
machine.
There's no compelling reason why thin GUI code and business logic should be
written using the same language. Why not use the most appropriate tool for
the job rather than force the "one size fits all" solution?
Mike
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asj
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: Java siege mentality |
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Tom Shelton <tom (AT) mtogden (DOT) com> wrote
| Quote: | ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.advocacy.]
On 2004-04-29, asj <asj (AT) blueboard (DOT) com> wrote:
It just hit me this morning why some Java people have such raging
insecurities about their platform (just check out javalobby.org for
the weekly groaning and griping and worrying) - it's because EVERYONE
(and I do mean everyone) is out to get us. No wonder I sometimes wake
up and feel like I have an ulcer after scanning the morning news - now
I know what it feels like to be those poor sobs at LOTR's Helm's Deep.
Way to rally the troops there, Aragorn... LOL.
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someone mentioned i'm more the frodo type, what with my petite good
looks and innate cuteness. plus, i keep muttering about "the ring",
"the ring"...
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Panama Red
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: Java siege mentality |
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I believe it was Roedy Green who said...
| Quote: | On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 05:42:46 GMT, Panama Red
[email]complaintdepartment2002 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com[/email]> wrote or quoted :
I wish Java would go away.
This tells us something about you, but nothing about Java. The topic
of this newsgroup is Java, not you.
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This is a Linux newsgroup, dickhead.
| Quote: | If you must troll, at least give REASON for your opinions.
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Because it is slow, and the apps do not play well together, they take
over and slow down my machine. Also Im sick of all the dickhead Indian
java programmers I see at work and downtown.
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asj
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: Java siege mentality |
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Mike B <someone (AT) invalidaddress6 (DOT) someplace> wrote
| Quote: | On 28 Apr 2004 21:41:28 -0700, [email]asj (AT) blueboard (DOT) com[/email] (asj) wrote:
and with Java on the desktop
poised for a quiet revival as the desktop environment diversifies,
Not until everyone has a multi GHz PC with 512+ MB of memory - perhaps 7+
years from now.
Developers often argue that Java GUI applications are as usable as native
applications. What they forget is that a typical development machine is at
the upper end of the performance scale whereas many end users (even in a
corporate environment) are using machines that belong in a museum - their
hardware only get upgraded/replaced when it breaks down.
|
i disagree, actually, for several reason:
http://www.jroller.com/page/kalimantan/20040423#who_is_knocking_at_my
i've been using some swt apps (for example, check out the open source
OwlReader, an RSS reader in swt at
http://sourceforge.net/projects/rssowl/ ) and they are FAST even in my
old circa 1999 windows desktop at home - in fact, they are
indistinguishable from other apps.
the old java is slow argument will always be bandied about by java
detractors, but technology progresses and time passes, and i do not
believe this will prove much a hindrance to java adoption on future
linux/mac/windows/whatever desktops (much like the java is slow mantra
did not prove a hindrance to J2me on small devices)
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asj
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: Java siege mentality |
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Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote
| Quote: | Because it is slow, and the apps do not play well together, they take
over and slow down my machine. Also Im sick of all the dickhead Indian
java programmers I see at work and downtown.
|
well, i'll ignore the racist comments and note, that i disagree for
several reason:
http://www.jroller.com/page/kalimantan/20040423#who_is_knocking_at_my
i've been using some swt apps (for example, check out the open source
OwlReader, an RSS reader in swt at
http://sourceforge.net/projects/rssowl/ ) and they are FAST even in my
old circa 1999 windows desktop at home - in fact, they are
indistinguishable from other apps.
the old java is slow argument will always be bandied about by java
detractors, but technology progresses and time passes, and i do not
believe this will prove much a hindrance to java adoption on future
linux/mac/windows/whatever desktops (much like the java is slow mantra
did not prove a hindrance to J2me on small devices)
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Dr Chaos
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: Java siege mentality |
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On 28 Apr 2004 21:41:28 -0700, asj <asj (AT) blueboard (DOT) com> wrote:
| Quote: |
To which I say: "Bring 'em on!" Java may not be the best programming
solution for everything, but because its core purpose is tied toward
ubiquity and its democratic nature does not tie it solidly behind one
company, sooner or later, most everything will be running some form of
Java.
|
Is that a good idea?
| Quote: | With Java smartcards pouring out in the hundreds of millions and
becoming a daily part of the lives of hundreds of millions of people
around the world, Java solidifying its hold on consumer mobiles and
creeping into the enterprise, Java on servers holding pride of place
as THE number one enterprise solution, and with Java on the desktop
poised for a quiet revival as the desktop environment diversifies,
we're well on the way to breaking the siege.
|
it's only a programming language.
is Java born perfect?
I remember in 1994 or 1995 how everybody essentially was claiming
that C++ was the ultimate programming language, that no development
in language is really necessary and all that needs to be done is
to write lots of libraries.
Guess it wasn't true, but now really it is, with Java?
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Panama Red
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 11:42 pm Post subject: Re: Java siege mentality |
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I believe it was asj who said...
| Quote: | Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote
Because it is slow, and the apps do not play well together, they take
over and slow down my machine. Also Im sick of all the dickhead Indian
java programmers I see at work and downtown.
well, i'll ignore the racist comments and note,
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What racist comments?
Figures, the page is broken. What do you expect?
The requested resource (/page/kalimantan/20040423) is not available.
| Quote: | i've been using some swt apps (for example, check out the open source
OwlReader, an RSS reader in swt at
http://sourceforge.net/projects/rssowl/ ) and they are FAST even in my
old circa 1999 windows desktop at home - in fact, they are
indistinguishable from other apps.
|
Good for you. Im sure they are fast (after the lights dim and engine
churns and eventually the the app starts)... but then try running a few
java apps on the same machine... now you're screwed.
Of course just about all of these issues occur on Windows machines
which are buggy as shit anyways, but the point is that java apps do not
seem to play well with eath other and suck up alot of resources.
| Quote: | the old java is slow argument will always be bandied about by java
detractors, but technology progresses and time passes, and i do not
believe this will prove much a hindrance to java adoption on future
linux/mac/windows/whatever desktops (much like the java is slow mantra
did not prove a hindrance to J2me on small devices)
|
I look forward to the day when java is not slow and ugly. And I hope
that our own homegrown developers take charge and as a society reject
the sweatshop java code that is infesting the US.
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asj
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:09 am Post subject: Re: Java siege mentality |
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Dr Chaos <mbkennelSPAMBEGONE (AT) NOSPAMyahoo (DOT) com> wrote
| Quote: | On 28 Apr 2004 21:41:28 -0700, asj <asj (AT) blueboard (DOT) com> wrote:
To which I say: "Bring 'em on!" Java may not be the best programming
solution for everything, but because its core purpose is tied toward
ubiquity and its democratic nature does not tie it solidly behind one
company, sooner or later, most everything will be running some form of
Java.
Is that a good idea?
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it is for java developers ;-)
| Quote: |
With Java smartcards pouring out in the hundreds of millions and
becoming a daily part of the lives of hundreds of millions of people
around the world, Java solidifying its hold on consumer mobiles and
creeping into the enterprise, Java on servers holding pride of place
as THE number one enterprise solution, and with Java on the desktop
poised for a quiet revival as the desktop environment diversifies,
we're well on the way to breaking the siege.
it's only a programming language.
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who said otherwise? as far as i can tell i don't have little statues
of tux and the java duke in my alcove, although i have occasionally
sacrificed the odd vb programmer to gosling.
how can any tool be "perfect"? one strives towards perfection, but
it's very doubtful it can ever be reached. "good enough", is almost
always good enough. juts look at windows.
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asj
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:27 am Post subject: Re: Java siege mentality |
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Panama Red <complaintdepartment2002 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote
i expect you to try again. but then again, perhaps it's better if you
just close your eyes and pretend there's no such thing as progress and
technological change.
| Quote: | i've been using some swt apps (for example, check out the open source
OwlReader, an RSS reader in swt at
http://sourceforge.net/projects/rssowl/ ) and they are FAST even in my
old circa 1999 windows desktop at home - in fact, they are
indistinguishable from other apps.
Good for you. Im sure they are fast (after the lights dim and engine
churns and eventually the the app starts)... but then try running a few
java apps on the same machine... now you're screwed.
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try running a lot of apps on the same machine, no matter whether they
are java or whatever. that's a stupid argument. if you can't even take
the time to actually try out the target of your complaints, i think
the wise idea would be to just clam up.
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