AppletTalk.com Java discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Microsoft now practically owns Java          AppletTalk.com Forum Index -> Java: Support and criticism View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Open Wound Guest Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:26 pm    Post subject: Microsoft now practically owns Java anoncoward <anoncoward (AT) my-deja (DOT) com> wrote Quote: JTK wrote: Open Wound wrote: http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2004-04/sunflash.20040402.3.html http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2004/apr04/04-02SunAgreementPR.asp Of course. What would you do if you had steered your once-viable company headlong into a "junk stock" rating? Umm, I think you are missing the point that MSFT just shelled out $2Billion. Not even small change for them. Yes, but did you notice what Sun gave away in exchange? Everything: Microsoft will have the rights to all of Sun's patents, and in fact, if Microsoft pays an additional $45 million per year they can get the rights to any future patent Sun gets, for the next 10 years: http://news.com.com/2100-1012_3-5188012.html?tag=nefd.top This means Microsoft has the right to clone anything and everything that Sun has. Because of Microsoft's superior marketing might, this effectively means Java now belongs to Microsoft. Sure, Sun has rights to Microsoft's patents too, but that is a no-op because Sun doesn't have the same marketing power as Microsoft. In other words, even if Sun manages to clone a Microsoft technology they wouldn't be able to out-market Microsoft, so Microsoft's patents are worthless to Sun. Looks like Bill Gates has out-smarted the competition once again. In the short term Sun looks good because of the $2B. In the long term Bill wins. Patents are the only protection against Microsoft and now suddenly Sun is naked and without protection. Back to top Mark Thornton Guest Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Microsoft now practically owns Java Open Wound wrote: Quote: anoncoward <anoncoward (AT) my-deja (DOT) com> wrote JTK wrote: Open Wound wrote: http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2004-04/sunflash.20040402.3.html http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2004/apr04/04-02SunAgreementPR.asp Of course. What would you do if you had steered your once-viable company headlong into a "junk stock" rating? Umm, I think you are missing the point that MSFT just shelled out $2Billion. Not even small change for them. Yes, but did you notice what Sun gave away in exchange? Everything: Microsoft will have the rights to all of Sun's patents, and in fact, if Microsoft pays an additional $45 million per year they can get the rights to any future patent Sun gets, for the next 10 years: http://news.com.com/2100-1012_3-5188012.html?tag=nefd.top This means Microsoft has the right to clone anything and everything that Sun has. Because of Microsoft's superior marketing might, this effectively means Java now belongs to Microsoft. Not really. If Microsoft want to change Java they have to go through the JCP process like anyone else. Sun were always happy for Microsoft to implement Java, provided they stuck to the rules. This settlement doesn't change those rules nor give Microsoft a way around them. Mark Thornton Back to top Dr Chaos Guest Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 7:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Microsoft now practically owns Java On 9 Apr 2004 08:26:22 -0700, Open Wound <openwound5000 (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: anoncoward <anoncoward (AT) my-deja (DOT) com> wrote JTK wrote: Open Wound wrote: http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2004-04/sunflash.20040402.3.html http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2004/apr04/04-02SunAgreementPR.asp Of course. What would you do if you had steered your once-viable company headlong into a "junk stock" rating? Umm, I think you are missing the point that MSFT just shelled out $2Billion. Not even small change for them. Yes, but did you notice what Sun gave away in exchange? Everything: Microsoft will have the rights to all of Sun's patents, and in fact, if Microsoft pays an additional $45 million per year they can get the rights to any future patent Sun gets, for the next 10 years: http://news.com.com/2100-1012_3-5188012.html?tag=nefd.top This means Microsoft has the right to clone anything and everything that Sun has. Because of Microsoft's superior marketing might, this effectively means Java now belongs to Microsoft. Microsoft doesn't want to help Java in any way. Quote: Sure, Sun has rights to Microsoft's patents too, but that is a no-op because Sun doesn't have the same marketing power as Microsoft. In other words, even if Sun manages to clone a Microsoft technology they wouldn't be able to out-market Microsoft, so Microsoft's patents are worthless to Sun. Looks like Bill Gates has out-smarted the competition once again. In the short term Sun looks good because of the $2B. In the long term Bill wins. Patents are the only protection against Microsoft and now suddenly Sun is naked and without protection. I predict that the next version of .NET interfaces or, more to the point, protocols for Windows remote file sharing will for some reason be licensed to Microsoft from a small company in the Northwest which just happens to have been started by former Microsoft employees and just happens to have some key patents. And Microsoft will just happen to reverse their normal way of doing business and license the patent instead of buying out the company or engineering around it. Back to top Roedy Green Guest Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 9:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Microsoft now practically owns Java On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 19:21:49 +0000 (UTC), Dr Chaos <mbkennelSPAMBEGONE (AT) NOSPAMyahoo (DOT) com> wrote or quoted : Quote: Microsoft doesn't want to help Java in any way. IBM tried to lock everyone into proprietary system in the old days too. At some point they discovered they could compete better by taking on platform independent applications that had outgrown smaller machines. Eventually Linux may force MS into a similar philosophy. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary. Back to top Open Wound Guest Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 3:29 am    Post subject: Re: Microsoft now practically owns Java Mark Thornton <mark.p.thornton (AT) ntl-spam-world (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Yes, but did you notice what Sun gave away in exchange? Everything: Microsoft will have the rights to all of Sun's patents, and in fact, if Microsoft pays an additional $45 million per year they can get the rights to any future patent Sun gets, for the next 10 years: http://news.com.com/2100-1012_3-5188012.html?tag=nefd.top This means Microsoft has the right to clone anything and everything that Sun has. Because of Microsoft's superior marketing might, this effectively means Java now belongs to Microsoft. Not really. If Microsoft want to change Java they have to go through the JCP process like anyone else. That is if Microsoft wants to change Java. I don't think Microsoft wants to change Java. Instead Microsoft will incorporate every single Java feature and innovation into .NET. They have the right to, because Sun has given them the rights to all their patents. Not just the patents they have now, but also all patents Sun is going to get for the next 10 years (provided Microsoft pays $45 million a year.) This in effect makes Sun the new research department of Microsoft. Bill Gates wins again. Back to top Tom Shelton Guest Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 7:05 am    Post subject: Re: Microsoft now practically owns Java On 2004-04-10, Open Wound <openwound5000 (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: Mark Thornton <mark.p.thornton (AT) ntl-spam-world (DOT) com> wrote Yes, but did you notice what Sun gave away in exchange? Everything: Microsoft will have the rights to all of Sun's patents, and in fact, if Microsoft pays an additional $45 million per year they can get the rights to any future patent Sun gets, for the next 10 years: http://news.com.com/2100-1012_3-5188012.html?tag=nefd.top This means Microsoft has the right to clone anything and everything that Sun has. Because of Microsoft's superior marketing might, this effectively means Java now belongs to Microsoft. Not really. If Microsoft want to change Java they have to go through the JCP process like anyone else. That is if Microsoft wants to change Java. I don't think Microsoft wants to change Java. Instead Microsoft will incorporate every single Java feature and innovation into .NET. They have the right to, because Sun has given them the rights to all their patents. Not just the patents they have now, but also all patents Sun is going to get for the next 10 years (provided Microsoft pays $45 million a year.) What inovations and features does Java have that C#/.NET don't? If anything, all MS will do is update J# to be compliant with a much more recent version of Java. Quote: This in effect makes Sun the new research department of Microsoft. Bill Gates wins again. This is true. -- Tom Shelton Powered By Gentoo Linux 1.4 "Zaphod grinned two manic grins, sauntered over to the bar and bought most of it." - Zaphod in paradise. Back to top Mark Thornton Guest Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 8:28 am    Post subject: Re: Microsoft now practically owns Java Open Wound wrote: Quote: Mark Thornton <mark.p.thornton (AT) ntl-spam-world (DOT) com> wrote That is if Microsoft wants to change Java. I don't think Microsoft wants to change Java. Instead Microsoft will incorporate every single Java feature and innovation into .NET. It seems to me that they had already done that. Quote: They have the right to, because Sun has given them the rights to all their patents. For a price, which is better than fighting Microsoft's legal armada. Back to top AK Guest Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:47 am    Post subject: Re: Microsoft now practically owns Java "Tom Shelton" <tom (AT) mtogden (DOT) com> wrote Quote: What inovations and features does Java have that C#/.NET don't? If anything, all MS will do is update J# to be compliant with a much more recent version of Java. Yes. This will make it much easier to migrate Java application to .Net platform. Once there, developers will be tempted to incorporate code written in other languages (including C#) thus making former Java platform application a Windows application. Back to top Charles Hizark Guest Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 2:41 am    Post subject: Re: Microsoft now practically owns Java The key is at end of ten years 2014 they will get rights to all patents. http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/709519/000089161804000850/f97974e8vk.htm "Pursuant to a patent covenant and stand-still agreement, the parties agreed not to sue each other for past damages for patent infringement with respect to the other party's products and technologies (the "Covenant Not to Sue for Damages"). Each year until 2014, Microsoft has the option of extending the Covenant Not to Sue for Damages to apply to the preceding year in exchange for an annual extension payment, so long as Microsoft has made all previous annual extension payments and so long as Microsoft has not sued Sun or authorized licensees of its commercial products for patent infringement prior to such time. At the end of the ten-year term, if Microsoft has made all such payments and not brought any such suits, then each party will automatically grant to the other party irrevocable, non-exclusive, perpetual licenses under all of its then existing patents and patent applications in order to allow such other party to continue to commercialize its then-shipping products and successor products. In addition, the parties agreed, for a period of six months, not to bring any patent infringement suit (including a suit for injunctive relief) against the other party or authorized licensees of its commercial products" Quote: Looks like Bill Gates has out-smarted the competition once again. In the short term Sun looks good because of the $2B. In the long term Bill wins. Patents are the only protection against Microsoft and now suddenly Sun is naked and without protection. Back to top Charles Hizark Guest Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Microsoft now practically owns Java [email]openwound5000 (AT) aol (DOT) com[/email] (Open Wound) wrote in message news:<e33ccdb5.0404090726.4d262a58 (AT) posting (DOT) google.com>... Quote: anoncoward <anoncoward (AT) my-deja (DOT) com> wrote JTK wrote: Open Wound wrote: http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2004-04/sunflash.20040402.3.html http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2004/apr04/04-02SunAgreementPR.asp Of course. What would you do if you had steered your once-viable company headlong into a "junk stock" rating? Umm, I think you are missing the point that MSFT just shelled out $2Billion. Not even small change for them. Yes, but did you notice what Sun gave away in exchange? Everything: Microsoft will have the rights to all of Sun's patents, and in fact, if Microsoft pays an additional $45 million per year they can get the rights to any future patent Sun gets, for the next 10 years: http://news.com.com/2100-1012_3-5188012.html?tag=nefd.top This means Microsoft has the right to clone anything and everything that Sun has. Because of Microsoft's superior marketing might, this effectively means Java now belongs to Microsoft. Well Sun is primarilly a hardware company. Therefore the advantage is really for Sun since Microsoft is software focused. After all Microsoft spend 6$ billion a year on R&D. The real question is how will Java and .NET interoperate. There is some limitations for Sun since mixing .NET and Java breaks the jvm sandbox. Quote: Sure, Sun has rights to Microsoft's patents too, but that is a no-op because Sun doesn't have the same marketing power as Microsoft. In other words, even if Sun manages to clone a Microsoft technology they wouldn't be able to out-market Microsoft, so Microsoft's patents are worthless to Sun. Looks like Bill Gates has out-smarted the competition once again. In the short term Sun looks good because of the $2B. In the long term Bill wins. Patents are the only protection against Microsoft and now suddenly Sun is naked and without protection. Back to top Tim Tyler Guest Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:55 am    Post subject: Re: Microsoft now practically owns Java Charles Hizark <hizark21 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote or quoted: [Patent access deal] Quote: This means Microsoft has the right to clone anything and everything that Sun has. Because of Microsoft's superior marketing might, this effectively means Java now belongs to Microsoft. Well Sun is primarilly a hardware company. Therefore the advantage is really for Sun since Microsoft is software focused. After all Microsoft spend 6$ billion a year on R&D. Have you seen how many patents Sun has? Have you seen how many patents Microsoft has? Perhaps compare - and then come back and tell us again who benefits from a cross-patent access deal. -- __________ Quote: im |yler http://timtyler.org/ [email]tim (AT) tt1lock (DOT) org[/email] Remove lock to reply. Back to top Roedy Green Guest Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Microsoft now practically owns Java On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 06:55:00 GMT, Tim Tyler <tim (AT) tt1lock (DOT) org> wrote or quoted : Quote: Have you seen how many patents Sun has? Have you seen how many patents Microsoft has? Perhaps compare - and then come back and tell us again who benefits from a cross-patent access deal. It also gives immunity from Microsoft's legal department. Otherwise MS could hassle Sun endlessly with questionable patent infringement suits. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary. Back to top Tim Tyler Guest Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:08 am    Post subject: Re: Microsoft now practically owns Java Roedy Green <see (AT) mindprod (DOT) com.invalid> wrote or quoted: Quote: Tim Tyler <tim (AT) tt1lock (DOT) org> wrote or quoted : Have you seen how many patents Sun has? Have you seen how many patents Microsoft has? Perhaps compare - and then come back and tell us again who benefits from a cross-patent access deal. It also gives immunity from Microsoft's legal department. Otherwise MS could hassle Sun endlessly with questionable patent infringement suits. So - Sun gets ClearType and FAT. Microsoft gets this lot: http://www.sun.com/legal/patents/ Also, history suggests it is Sun who tends to hire the lawyers first. -- __________ Quote: im |yler http://timtyler.org/ [email]tim (AT) tt1lock (DOT) org[/email] Remove lock to reply. 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